The infinite is inside of us

What do the mystics mean by “divine union”? Why is suffering such a big deal for them - and what role does it play in our contemplative path?

Today I have joining me a fellow spiritual wanderluster, Fr. Ronald Rolheiser. Fr. Ron is a professor, retreat leader, award-winning author, and serves as president of the Oblate School of Theology. One reason why his writings are so popular is that he is able to speak in very human language, which I deeply appreciate. His books include The Holy Longing, The Restless Heart, Sacred Fire, and Wrestling with God.

Join us for a conversation about mysticism, longing, divine union, the role of asceticism, and what a true contemplative looks like.

To learn more about Ron, visit www.ronrolheiser.com

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:27

Kelly Deutsch

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. I am Kelly Deutsch and today I am joined by a very special guest who is one of the most popular spiritual writers today, Father Ronald Rolle Heizer. Father Ron is a professor, a retreat leader, and award winning author, and serves as the president of the Oblate School of Theology. one reason why his writings are so popular is that he's able to speak in a very human language, which I deeply appreciate.

00:00:32:00 - 00:01:01:01

Kelly Deutsch

I find one of the greatest marks of wisdom is to be able to speak deep truths very plainly, which Father Ron excels at. His books include The Holy Longing Guidelines for Christian Spirituality, The Restless Heart, Finding Our Spiritual Home in Times of Loneliness, Sacred Fire, A vision for deeper Human and Christian maturity, and many more. Today, Father Ron and I are going to be deep diving into mysticism, including longing, divine union, suffering, and lots of other exciting topics.

00:01:01:01 - 00:01:03:29

Kelly Deutsch

So, Father Ron, I'm very excited to have you with us.

00:01:04:01 - 00:01:05:05

Ronald Rolheiser

Good to be here. Thanks, Kelly.

00:01:05:10 - 00:01:23:05

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, absolutely. I wanted to start today just by asking. You've been talking about these topics of spirituality and mysticism for over 40 years. How did you first encounter the Mystical Path? Was it through the writings of the mystics, or was it your own experience? Something else?

00:01:23:07 - 00:01:46:24

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, you know, it's interesting. Kelly. That's right, 40 years. But I'm also it was, I was in my 30s before I got interested in the mysticism, you know, as a, as, a seminarian. And in my initial field of theology, I wasn't interested in, I somehow identified with something more exotic, you know, and and whenever I tried to read a mystic like John of the cross, I couldn't read them.

00:01:47:21 - 00:02:10:10

Ronald Rolheiser

and at one stage, I was teaching a course in Edmonton, a religious experience, and ironically, ran into a methodist writer. Langdon Gilkey was talking about how our society is undergoing a collective dark night of the soul. I thought, I want to find out what that is. and so then I. I started seriously getting into John of the cross as the first mystic.

00:02:11:03 - 00:02:32:20

Ronald Rolheiser

and from there on, it's been a love affair, you know, that's just that I kind of did one by one of the John of the cross, got into the Theresa's and some of the others and, contemporary mystics. So on. But it's just a wealth. It's a goldmine of, religious wealth that, really has been left unexplored even in Catholic circles.

00:02:32:21 - 00:02:56:09

Ronald Rolheiser

It's making a comeback now. But when I was at the seminary in theology, we did study the mystics. You might study, information houses and Protestant seminaries didn't study them at all, you know, and all of a sudden realized there's this deep well of incredible wisdom and so on. and since then, like, people like John of the cross have become the most deeply influential of my spiritual field theology.

00:02:56:12 - 00:02:58:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, he's quite the one to start with.

00:02:59:01 - 00:03:13:18

Ronald Rolheiser

Like, I was very lucky. I got AA6 week major research course by Michael Buckley University of San Francisco when I went there in summer of 76, and he just led us through John of the cross, line by line, the greatest course I've ever taken in my life, you know? So.

00:03:13:18 - 00:03:30:27

Kelly Deutsch

Wow. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Because I remember I mean, I remember when I was like 16 thinking mystics are important. I'm not quite sure like what it is about them. And I tried picking up, you know, Teresa of Avila as interior castle. And I was reading it, as you know, the 16 year old who's getting excited about my faith.

00:03:30:27 - 00:03:38:21

Kelly Deutsch

But, you know, I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm I'm missing some things here. But it is really interesting.

00:03:38:23 - 00:03:52:29

Ronald Rolheiser

That wouldn't be the place to start if, you know, honestly, if somebody started to say, start with threads of as you start with the other Teresa. And she's kind of the Anne Frank of the spiritual life. You can read her. But Teresa, John, you almost did take a course on those people you know.

00:03:53:00 - 00:04:10:11

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes I know we're going to have to offer one of those later because there are so rich and deep. But I think, you know, now that I've studied theology and have done things, it makes a lot more sense, like their worldview, their terminology. But at the beginning you're just like, there's a lot happening here. I don't even know.

00:04:11:21 - 00:04:19:21

Kelly Deutsch

for those who are listening, who aren't familiar with mysticism, especially Christian mysticism, how would you define it?

00:04:19:24 - 00:04:38:18

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, and I may be, a Confederate voice here, you know, so there's there's two and I'm going to define it the way, you know, later on in September, I would give a talk about pearls. And Ruth was I'm using her, and she's also, supported by the great spirits of our time, Bridie McGinn.

00:04:38:21 - 00:05:12:13

Ronald Rolheiser

See, a lot of people consider mysticism something extraordinary, an extraordinary experience where you have a vision, to some kind of extraordinary, ecstatic experience. and mysticism can be that there are mystics, you know, Julian of Norwich and famous mystics, but by and large, mysticism, everybody can experience mysticism. So Ruth Burrows would simply say mysticism is, when, when, when you touch a moment of clarity inside of yourself, where there's just no filters, you know, like, let me give you an example.

00:05:12:16 - 00:05:35:06

Ronald Rolheiser

She, you know, she was 18 years old. I want to use that in the talks. and she was a high school girl in, in England and in a feather heaven by her own. And, you know, she wasn't very serious religiously. And they were on a retreat for graduation. And she and this other group girl were fooling around, and the sisters pulled them out and they said, no, when when we're in conference, you have to be in chapel.

00:05:35:06 - 00:05:53:25

Ronald Rolheiser

And so she would have to sit in chapel for hours with the sister chaperoning her. And first, you know, they were passing notes and humoring but still a strict mom, she said at a moment of clarity. Not not just I knew who I was and who God was, I knew I just did. It's just a moment of absolute clarity and changed your life.

00:05:53:28 - 00:06:14:16

Ronald Rolheiser

So Burroughs and that's my definition. It's it's being touched for real in a way that's deeper than words, deeper than thought, deeper than. It's just where a certain point you just know something, you know. And see, we all have mystical experience. We aren't all mystics. Mystics can give articulation to it, but see. And so there's two kinds that there can be.

00:06:14:16 - 00:06:36:03

Ronald Rolheiser

Mystics have extraordinary experience, you know, they have visions, they have ecstasies, they get the stigmata and so on. That's rare. There are people like that. but, most mystics, they're human, they're ordinary. They have deep moments of clarity in which they just know. You know.

00:06:36:06 - 00:06:57:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. I love that sense of unknowing. And I remember when I first heard of that book, you know, Cloud of Unknowing that made no sense to me whatsoever. But I feel like it has something to do with that sense of, you know, that you know, that, you know, and you can't really necessarily put it into words. But there's something deep and anchored and rooted in, in that experience.

00:06:58:01 - 00:07:19:23

Ronald Rolheiser

Because usually we think we know where we don't, you know, most of the time we're thinking through filters and ideologies. If someone says to you, what do you really believe on anything? Sometimes it's, you don't even know. You know, you think, you know, I always say, like, for instance, a few a couple of years ago when that movie came out, The Passion of the Christ, and there was so much for against that.

00:07:19:26 - 00:07:42:04

Ronald Rolheiser

As I said, I was convinced that nobody ever watched the movie. We watched each other watch the movie, and and then we react, you know, because nobody was reacting to ideology, to everything, to to our wounds and so on that we but missed the moment of clarity. You just know who you are, what reality is. And that's a mystical moment.

00:07:42:07 - 00:07:55:04

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah. A mystically driven life is that you live out of that. you see, then you don't live out of ideology. You don't live out of, you know, false selves or ego. You live out. This is this is who I am.

00:07:55:06 - 00:08:05:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Talk to me a little more about that. What does that look like to live out of that sense of deep knowing or those moments of clarity? What does that look like?

00:08:05:14 - 00:08:23:22

Ronald Rolheiser

Okay, let let me to risk it this way. you know, I know we have three faculties and, you know, and that's been Cynthia today. They say we give your head, your heart and your gut. Okay. And people kind of know what the head is, and people kind of know what the heart is. But I don't think we even get what the gut is.

00:08:23:26 - 00:08:48:21

Ronald Rolheiser

Okay. okay. Your head is your thought. Okay? Your heart is your feelings, your activity. But notice they're not the deep part. You think with your head, you feel with your heart. But who's the you who's sitting behind there? See? And that's the gut. with your gut, you don't. Your head tells you what you think is wise.

00:08:48:24 - 00:09:10:15

Ronald Rolheiser

Your heart tells you what what you'd like to do, and your gut tells you what you have to do. I say it's you. You're at center. You know I have to do this. as opposed to, I want to do this. I think it's smart to do this, you know, and see and consult with the Greek mystics, the Carmelite tradition, like John of the Cross tree.

00:09:10:17 - 00:09:28:19

Ronald Rolheiser

It's what you know. What do you have to do? Don't ask yourself what you want to do well. And ask yourself what you think is smart to do. Just. Kelly, what do you have to do? See, that's your gut, see? And that's your tour center, you know, and it's not that your head and heart aren't important, but notice they aren't the deep part of you.

00:09:29:16 - 00:09:35:10

Kelly Deutsch

You are external should either. It's not like I have to do this because you know tell telling.

00:09:35:10 - 00:09:56:15

Ronald Rolheiser

Me really from, from your deep side you know. And that's the voice of God. That's the voice of reality inside of you, you know. but let me give you an example that I use, you know, Peter, when Peter's before Jesus, right after Jesus has given the Bread of Life discourse in John and he says, you know, well, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you won't have life in me.

00:09:56:15 - 00:10:18:02

Ronald Rolheiser

And John said, he walked away and said, this is intolerable language. We can't hear this. And Jesus turns to Peter said, you want to walk away too? And Peter said, we'd like to. He said, we have no other place to go. But then he says this. But besides, we know that you have the words of eternal life. That's a very important text at that moment, Peter's head isn't dead.

00:10:18:02 - 00:10:40:00

Ronald Rolheiser

It is hard, isn't it? But a deeper part of him is that he's telling Jesus, you sound like death. You feel like death. Except we know. Except we know this is truth. This, you know. And see, that's a mystically driven life. You know, like, for instance, in any marriage or any commitment, there's going to be times when your head is in it, your heart is dead.

00:10:40:02 - 00:11:02:19

Ronald Rolheiser

You can say, I need to stay here. this is where truth is. See that? That's that's that's mysticism, you know, as Ruth defines it. So you just know. See, when Peter's doing that, he's a mystic. He says everything says I should be out of here. Except I know at a deep level, this is going to bring me life.

00:11:02:21 - 00:11:04:07

Ronald Rolheiser

Yes, it's going to bring me life.

00:11:04:13 - 00:11:26:28

Kelly Deutsch

I feel like a lot of people today call that either like your bodies wisdom or even intuition. Like just that deeper sense that you, you know, this is what you have to do. and it's so helpful when you are discerning big decisions or, you know, life changes or whatever, when when something deep down, even if, you know, whatever it might be, I could go over here and I could get paid less.

00:11:26:28 - 00:11:38:01

Kelly Deutsch

And if I go over here, you know, maybe I get paid more. But something in me, even though my head can recognize, you know, the pros and cons of each, something in me is like,

00:11:38:03 - 00:11:56:27

Ronald Rolheiser

Like what? Not Kelly gonna see, your intuition is very close to see the intuitive sense. Notice the intuitive sense. It's not your head or your heart. That's another part of you. And that runs very close. you know, you just have a a sense and you know, that, you know, that I need to do this, you know?

00:11:56:27 - 00:12:15:24

Ronald Rolheiser

Are you familiar with the poet Rena Marie Rocky, the famous? I remember his letters to the young poet. At one point, this class. And what should I do? And, Rocky, this could have been John of the cross giving advice. He said go into stillness, hour of your night, and ask yourself what do I have to do? What do I have to do here?

00:12:16:01 - 00:12:37:01

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, see, and it's not so much what society wants, your parents want or whatever. Just, you know, to get to who is the true you. You know, that's your God, that's your soul. you know, telling you, I need to do this. That's Peter before Jesus saying everything says you should walk away. Except I know I need to stay here.

00:12:38:17 - 00:13:13:13

Kelly Deutsch

Yes I know and I love that. to me that's a very easy way to explain Ignatian discernment. You know, where it's like sink down into your gut or you know, if you want into your body wherever it is and just feel whether or not that one decision feels more spacious and whole and, you know, or do you feel like cramped and anxious and, you know, like being able to, sink down deep beneath the head that rationalizes like, but this would be and one over here, option B, you know, and or the heart.

00:13:13:13 - 00:13:14:05

Kelly Deutsch

So yeah.

00:13:14:11 - 00:13:16:11

Ronald Rolheiser

Let's now Kelly, can I use a colorful word.

00:13:16:14 - 00:13:17:06

Kelly Deutsch

Sure.

00:13:17:08 - 00:13:37:25

Ronald Rolheiser

Okay. I could do another example. You know, Daniel Berrigan, the great maverick Jesuit. and I remember seeing this interview on television about I jumped out of my chair. I know I was a young priest. And so, anyway, this interview, this father says, where where does your faith reside? Is your faith in your head or your heart in various stages of faith is rarely where your head is that, he said.

00:13:38:01 - 00:13:54:21

Ronald Rolheiser

It's even less really where your heart is. And he said, faith is where your ass is at. And he says, I'm not trying to be curious. Like, what are your commitments? You know, where are you sitting? He says, anybody in any commitment knows. There's times your head isn't there, it's your heart isn't that you stay and and why?

00:13:54:24 - 00:14:00:03

Ronald Rolheiser

Because you realize at a different level, you know, I know it's a colorful word, but kind of nails it. Yeah.

00:14:00:06 - 00:14:26:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious to. So the podcast name is Spiritual Wanderlust. And I feel like that aligns very well with your book Holy Longing. I'm curious how longings tie into all of this. And, like, where did these longings come from and what's what's their point? Why do we have this kind of existential restlessness and wanderlust?

00:14:26:03 - 00:14:47:22

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, Kelly, that is not just totally wrong. And that's the deep motif in all of my writings, you know, and ultimately, you know, the articulation comes from Augustine. I think one of the great lines, spiritual lines ever written or Saint Augustine, he begins his confession with the lines, you've made us for yourself, Lord, in our hearts are restless until they rest in you.

00:14:47:24 - 00:15:16:07

Ronald Rolheiser

So basically, as Carl Reiner, who's incidentally, today we're celebrating the anniversary of the death of Carl Reiner. But he says, there is no finished symphony like you in this part. You know, we're always, And that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing, you know, if you could be satisfied with something, you wouldn't have a soul in the human sense, you know, see, see infinities inside of us that comes from an image and likeness of God inside of us.

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:52:15

Ronald Rolheiser

So it keeps us perpetual, really dissatisfied, anxious, longing, yearning. and, and it's it's what drives us. So basically it's it's the fire of God inside of us that, draws us out. And it's it's the basis for our movement. It's interesting, you know, and in my writings, you know, that isn't just in people. It's in everything, you know, in that conference that if you take the Greek word eros, which we've kind of reduced to sex and so on, but eros just means eroticism.

00:15:52:17 - 00:16:14:02

Ronald Rolheiser

But, you know, that's already in the atoms. Hydrogen and oxygen get married. It's it's now called water. But, you know, at the protons and neutrons, the whole world is yearning. see, so it's not just with people where everything is incomplete. It's trying to complete and move out and move out and move out. It's it's the key to everything, you know?

00:16:15:04 - 00:16:39:23

Ronald Rolheiser

and, so when God put us here, God made sure we weren't going to just settle on this planet and to he and since have already used some color on you, some further color. You know, I always see, I was told my anthropology students, I said, you know, the difference between humans and animals. I said, cattle contentedly munch grass and pastures and human beings discontented.

00:16:39:23 - 00:17:05:11

Ronald Rolheiser

They smoke grass and bars. And that's the difference. Cattle haven't got this fire. This cattle don't have infinity inside of them. But we do, we do. And so kind of, you're never going to make full peace with this world. You can't, you know, and that's also the best part of you, that that's the part of you that's that's pushing you to greatness, to love the universality, ultimately to heaven.

00:17:07:12 - 00:17:31:14

Kelly Deutsch

yes. I it's something that I love exploring those tensions, you know, and because it's something that's both beautiful and painful at the same time, like most things in life, you know, that's like the greatest joys always have kind of a tinge of sorrow because, you know, it's not going to last forever. In The Greatest Sorrows, you know, sometimes have a tinge of joy because you know, you have something to grieve.

00:17:31:14 - 00:17:58:22

Kelly Deutsch

This means that you loved greatly. And it's painful, though, when you recognize that already. But not yet. But I like how you express it. And I think that's one of the things that you see is that motif in the mystics you know, of. They've tasted something of the divine, and they just want more. And that's what drives a lot of us to seek the contemplative life or get curious about mysticism, because we've tasted something and it just lights that longing within us and we can't stop.

00:17:58:24 - 00:18:22:26

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit about divine union, because divine union is something that mystics talk about. And for those of us on, you know, kind of a contemplative journey, it's something that we might just call the aim of our longing is we want union to be one with God, wrapped up with ravished.

00:18:22:26 - 00:18:47:06

Kelly Deutsch

You know, there's all these wonderful, images, especially in the mystics. but I think there's a common misconception about divine union that it means, like, kind of like you were saying before, like these ecstasies or levitation or the heights of prayer. but a lot of the mystics and sages and saints talk about the cross as their marriage bed, you know, of, of suffering as this place of intimacy.

00:18:47:09 - 00:18:54:10

Kelly Deutsch

And so I was wondering if you talk a little bit about what divine union is and why would it include suffering?

00:18:54:12 - 00:19:14:03

Ronald Rolheiser

Let's take the first part first. What divine union is actually, that's that's more complex than we normally think. See, I think that that the image we have of divine union is that precisely of some kind of almost semi ecstatic or ecstatic experience where suddenly you're a deep piece and all of a sudden all your long is gone and you're just, you have a sense I'm.

00:19:14:03 - 00:19:36:17

Ronald Rolheiser

I'm one with God. that can happen. But you want it across the sea. That might happen later on in life. and for a few seconds, if it happens, it'll be episodic. It's not, you know, in this life and so on. But, see, union with God is, is a complex thing, particularly for us as Christians, you know?

00:19:36:19 - 00:20:09:20

Ronald Rolheiser

So you notice the difference between us as Christians and theists like us, but we're also Christians, but say a Buddhist, a Hindu, a muslim, a Daoist, you know, see for them, God is not just in heaven for Christians. God is in heaven and on earth. We're the body of Christ and so on. See? So, for instance, for a Christian, if you're having a wonderful meal with your family and you feel very that's union with God and that's union with Christ, you know, see, so that for us it's also incarnational.

00:20:09:20 - 00:20:48:28

Ronald Rolheiser

You might say, well, this is really nice. It's just our Thanksgiving meal. But, you know, no, that's union. union with God perceive. Because as Christians, we have God in heaven and God down here. Remember, Paul says, we are the body of Christ on earth. We're like a body or replace Christ. We are. See? So for Christian, when we have the experience of, of of human wholeness, of human intimacy of any kind, that's also a union with God, you know, and then that the second, the other part of that, which is, which is really tricky, see, and I'm still working on this, as is everybody, you know, where somehow you

00:20:48:28 - 00:21:10:25

Ronald Rolheiser

think God is out there and union with God is is somehow, you know, but God is more inside of you than you are inside of you, that God is part of your very subjectivity. So that, you know, the union with God is that's that you make peace with something outside of yourself. It's also going to involve making peace with something inside of yourself.

00:21:10:27 - 00:21:33:21

Ronald Rolheiser

No, God is part of our very subjectivity, you know? Yeah. But no, your second part, the cross, that's a good question. It's a difficult question. You know, and usually it has to be sorted out. Let me start with this. So Jesus says, if you become my disciple, pick up your cross. There's going to be pain flowing into your life.

00:21:33:24 - 00:21:55:15

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, you can ask a legitimate question why? Like like why what? you know, if you love Jesus, pain is going to flow into your life, you know? In fact, I love a line from Daniel Berrigan. Daniel Berrigan, before you get serious about Jesus, consider very carefully how good you're going to look on what we've got above that line.

00:21:55:15 - 00:22:23:15

Ronald Rolheiser

You know. But why? Well, that is a big misunderstanding. Like, we somewhat think that if you get close to God, God purifies you through suffering and so on. No. And the suffering comes this way. the suffering comes the closer you get to God and to union with God. So on the more sensitive you're going to become as a human being, and the more sensitive you're going to become as a human being, the more you're going to let pain flow into your life, you know?

00:22:24:01 - 00:22:48:07

Ronald Rolheiser

now you're also going to deep rejoice. You're glad everything for more into your life, see the opposite of that. I have English friends and they have this expression. They say, this guy is as thick as a plank, you know. Well, see, a plank feels nothing. It's not. See, you know, a plank is totally insensitive. See? So as a human being, I can be thick as a plank, which means I'm not going to have a lot of suffering in my life.

00:22:48:09 - 00:23:04:16

Ronald Rolheiser

I can drive over a child and go home and have dinner so the kids shouldn't be there, you know? See? But the closer you get to Christ, the more you're going to open yourself up and the more you're going to feel, you're going to feel the cross, the pain and the and and the less you're going to protect yourself, you know?

00:23:04:18 - 00:23:31:18

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, incidentally, as an aside, that's what that's what distinguishes the Christ real Christianity from the gospels of prosperity. See, prosperity gospels put on Jesus. You're going to get special breaks. Real fear put on Jesus. It's going to sensitize you. And you're going to feel both the deepest pains and joys of this planet. You know, and you're going to be crucified sometimes.

00:23:31:20 - 00:23:53:17

Ronald Rolheiser

And you're also going to stop protecting yourself against pain, because normally we know our egos protect us. I'm not, you know, I won't always be safe. I'm always going to be comfortable and so on. See, some of that pain will flow into your life, you know? Now you know, the image of the marriage bed, you know, that's an important mystical image.

00:23:53:20 - 00:24:13:26

Ronald Rolheiser

And, and for them, many of them, like John of the cross, they use that for their deaths. See them, they almost felt this lack of union with God, a lack of union. And they see, see, it's that we have to not yet, you know, but they already so they they fantasize to death. That's going to be your wedding night.

00:24:14:03 - 00:24:47:10

Ronald Rolheiser

See, that's going to be the your, your, your knight of complete consummation and so on. but there's another mystical image in that, that that's drawn out and that is that the marriage bed is, is also a powerful image for your true home. a truly, you know, even example, when I was teaching at you through some extension courses, some secular universities back home, and one year I was teaching this course and a young woman in class was 30 years old.

00:24:47:12 - 00:25:18:01

Ronald Rolheiser

The very existence social background. And I had the students read a book, excuse me, from, Christopher Dimmick, who's a new Jersey writer, and he wrote a wonderful book way back in the early 90s called, what is it called now? So, only the heart knows where to find them precious memories. But anyway, just a series of essays on his life and him as a young man, getting married, having kids and, you know, and not romantic because he's a great writer, but but more so many.

00:25:18:01 - 00:25:34:26

Ronald Rolheiser

This woman comes to head in her essay and she says, father, she says, is the best book I've ever read. She said, you know, she said, I grew up with no religious background to no moral instruction, and I have slept my way through two Canadian provinces, said. But now I know what I want is what he has said.

00:25:34:26 - 00:25:59:28

Ronald Rolheiser

I want the marriage bed. I need my sex to take me home. I need a marriage bed. See, I need that to take me home. So that's also mistake limiting the marriage. But when you're home, you're home, you know, and and domestic use that for when you die. You're coming home. That's your real home. It's your ultimate marriage bed.

00:26:00:28 - 00:26:13:12

Ronald Rolheiser

and so they look forward to their deaths during the cross. Would pray for death. And not in a morbid sense, kind of. This is good, but I'm waiting for something better.

00:26:13:15 - 00:26:41:10

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. See how that longing is that's kind of the epitome of that, you know, all of their imagery about, you know, being ravished by the divine. and I also like to think of how, you know, marriage is not just sex. Like there's so much more to marriage and how, like Teresa of Avila would say, holiness is just doing the will of God.

00:26:41:10 - 00:27:00:04

Kelly Deutsch

Many of the saints and mystics would say that, and the will of God is whatever is in your life, you know, and so you don't have to go out and seek suffering, you know, like beat yourself or fast, you know, in whatever kinds of sacrifices you think you need to make. but really just saying yes to your life, whatever that is.

00:27:00:04 - 00:27:10:18

Kelly Deutsch

The joys and the sorrows like you said, be welcoming them and opening yourself to them, and they come in so much more deeply. as you, as you draw closer to that divine union.

00:27:10:20 - 00:27:34:15

Ronald Rolheiser

In fact, I'm glad you said concealed carry. Someone should never seek suffering. Never. That's always unhealthy. No, that's not Christian. You don't seek suffering. And you you don't protect yourself from it. If if you shouldn't, you know, you but you never seek. If you seek it, that's more of it. That's wrong, you know. we don't seek to suffer, you know, John, of the cross says this to the mystics.

00:27:34:15 - 00:27:52:12

Ronald Rolheiser

They say, you know, and they say God doesn't have the people on conveyor belts in some people's lives. God doesn't give a lot of suffering. And other thing on John to cross, you know, that's the freedom of God, you know. And he said, when there isn't suffering, just be grateful. Enjoy the season, you know? yes.

00:27:52:15 - 00:28:13:21

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I know it's, kind of remarkable. I, I thought it was very balanced, the heart of a religious community for a number of years in Rome. And, you know, there were different communities that, you know, would sleep on, you know, a bed with boards, basically, or have mass every Friday or, you know, just a variety of penances and sacrifices and such.

00:28:13:21 - 00:28:32:00

Kelly Deutsch

And, the community I had been a part of was like, our penance is living a balanced life. There are too many people who like sleep too much or sleep too little, eat too much, eat too little, exercise too. You know, they're like, get balanced. And then maybe we could talk about if there's anything else that God's calling you to, but just live your life really well.

00:28:32:03 - 00:28:36:08

Kelly Deutsch

There's like enough sacrifice already built in. We don't need to.

00:28:36:10 - 00:28:45:09

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, Richard McBrien, the same as true dame. He had this expression. I very much like Richard McBrien, you say, practiced the asceticism of joy.

00:28:45:11 - 00:28:46:21

Kelly Deutsch

But I like that.

00:28:46:24 - 00:28:59:21

Ronald Rolheiser

He said that's maybe the ultimate. The census and asceticism, asceticism of all, the asceticism of trying to stay happy. And he said that that that's real asceticism. Yeah.

00:28:59:23 - 00:29:24:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I don't want to go into this too deeply, but I'm curious then, what the role of asceticism is in the spiritual life, because you hear about it in so many spiritual writers, you know, especially in the Christian path, like desert fathers and mothers and, you know, various people along the way. So what is the role of of asceticism or of sacrifice or however you might define that?

00:29:25:01 - 00:29:40:23

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, well, let me give you an example. You know, you know, an asceticism life itself will give you the correct amount of asceticism. I'm gonna talk about, you know, proactive asceticism later. And that is, for instance. Okay. do you have children myself?

00:29:40:23 - 00:29:41:02

Kelly Deutsch

No.

00:29:41:09 - 00:30:05:12

Ronald Rolheiser

Okay. But imagine a mother as a baby. She's gonna have to practice a lot of asceticism in the next months, getting up at night and so on. And she does that not. I'm going to deprive herself. Sleep. No, she just responds, you know. But in all of our lives, if we live our lives honestly, there's going to be plenty, plenty of a citizen, you know, you don't have to pick, you know, see, so.

00:30:05:12 - 00:30:31:12

Ronald Rolheiser

And that's the basic asceticism of life. you know, there's, interesting, I'm sure you're you're your watchers are participants here. Do you know who Carla Credo was? No. Carla credit the famous Italian writer. And to and Carla credit. Share this. One of his books. You know, at one point he was a monk in the Sahara desert for 24 years, and he lived out there by himself.

00:30:31:12 - 00:30:52:24

Ronald Rolheiser

And he prayed and he learned the Bedouin language and translate the Bedouin into scriptures, into Bedouin, and so on. And he prayed all those really thousands of hours. He said he went home to Italy to visit his mother said, my mother raised ten kids and sometimes didn't have, you know, time to go to the bathroom, not allowed to pray, he said.

00:30:52:24 - 00:31:21:07

Ronald Rolheiser

And I realized she was more, unselfish and more contemplative. And I was, I said, and it didn't mean there's something wrong with what I did in the desert. Meant something wonderfully right. All the essentials, of course, to practice as a mother, you know, so that, you know, if any of us, whether you're a parent or whatever, if you give yourself over to your work with honesty and so on, there's going to be a lot of asceticism.

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:47:12

Ronald Rolheiser

Now, what about lent and fasting and so on, like I would call proactive asceticism? well, you know, I always tell people when you do that get spiritual direction. to make sure so sometimes you can proactively put heed to your spiritual life. No, you might have a say, you know, I think I'm, I'm getting to comfort water too complacent or whatever.

00:31:47:17 - 00:32:09:12

Ronald Rolheiser

And so I need to lay a little heat on here. I need some desert time. Whatever. See, so you might do things like that. and they might be very, you know, specifically related somebody to a weight problem are reading a look at the food thing in my life, you know, or I have TV addiction. I have an addiction to the internet or something.

00:32:09:12 - 00:32:34:27

Ronald Rolheiser

I need to look at that, you know? but see, you do have a specific reason, you know? but those aren't the major transformative, the set of systems of your life, the major transform of asceticism is built into your life. That is, if you give yourself over, you know they're going to take you. Yeah, at a certain point, they're going to take every ounce of energy you have and so on, and lead you to sanctity.

00:32:36:00 - 00:33:01:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I feel like that ties in nicely with, just the life of virtue, which I, I feel like is something that we don't talk about enough because in a lot of contemplative circles, we'll talk about this pairing of the contemplative and the active and how important those are to have together. But I think, many of us just assume that the active life is like social activism, you know, or social justice or something, which could be part of it.

00:33:02:00 - 00:33:24:08

Kelly Deutsch

But I think when a lot of the saints and spiritual writers write about that, about the active life, it's more of a life of virtue. You know, it's not necessarily or only taking care of the poor and being anti-racist and all of those things, but it's also working on those things like, do I have a weight problem? Am I gossiping too much under the guise of like asking people to pray for my friend, you know?

00:33:24:08 - 00:33:42:00

Kelly Deutsch

Or what are my faults that I'm regularly tripping up and falling into? and I'm curious, how does how does virtue help us on the way to divine union?

00:33:42:02 - 00:33:47:19

Ronald Rolheiser

Okay, that's a pretty theoretical question to get me back in a classroom.

00:33:47:26 - 00:33:48:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:33:48:09 - 00:33:51:25

Ronald Rolheiser

How does virtue rephrase that for me? Again? Phrases of how does.

00:33:51:28 - 00:33:57:00

Kelly Deutsch

Virtue help us on the way to divine union? Or what role does it play?

00:33:57:02 - 00:34:18:00

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, I want to give you a simplistic answer. We need to be teased out. You know, you know, classical medieval philosopher says you have to say the head follows, the heart follows the hips. You have to think your way into something new. but more and more today, people say you can act your way into a new way of thinking.

00:34:18:12 - 00:34:38:16

Ronald Rolheiser

you can you can act your way into transformation. Be so, so that see what you can do for you by doing the right things. Eventually you'll become the right kind of person, if I can. And I hope that's not simplistically phrased, you know, as opposed to first you think, what's the right kind of person to become?

00:34:38:16 - 00:34:59:17

Ronald Rolheiser

Then you you try to act yourself into it to this reverses it. It's probably more that what I the way I do spiritual ecstasy. I sometimes act yourself into it like you act yourself into a new way of thinking and a new way of being. Do the right things, you know, even if at the time they're forced and so on.

00:35:00:00 - 00:35:23:13

Ronald Rolheiser

your heart isn't there. Eventually, you get there, you know, as opposed to, first of all, you perfectly think of what should I become, what exercise I do to transform myself sometimes just do the right thing, just do virtuous acts, and eventually you'll become a virtuous person. Yeah, yeah. Act yourself into a new person.

00:35:24:08 - 00:35:42:23

Kelly Deutsch

And really just thinking of it as doing the right thing in any given circumstance. Not that I need to like sit down and have my program kind of like, I think it was Benjamin Franklin who would sit down and he's like, here are my virtues, and here's what I'm gonna work on, you know, each day. And he kind of plotted it out and had a chart and a whole graph and, you know, like is very methodical about it, which is cool.

00:35:42:23 - 00:36:10:06

Kelly Deutsch

Good for him. But I think, like we've been saying all along, life will give you the right amount of asceticism. Life will give you opportunities to grow in virtue. So you don't necessarily need to sit and think like, how do I be more courageous, you know? But to recognize that, oh, maybe I need to have the courage to have that really difficult conversation with somebody at work because they've been continually interrupting me every time we get into like, a big meeting and I'm sick of it.

00:36:10:06 - 00:36:28:05

Kelly Deutsch

And instead of stewing and resenting, maybe I just need to like, pointed out and say, hey, I don't know if you realize you're doing this, but, every time I speak, I get interrupted and we need to figure out how to do this differently. You know, a lot of us don't think of that as like, that's my that's my path.

00:36:28:05 - 00:36:55:29

Kelly Deutsch

That's where I need to grow in virtue. But I feel like those very simple things are are the opportunities that life gives us. Yeah. One more question on, the role of suffering, how in the Christian understanding do we turn suffering into a prayer? How would you explain that?

00:36:56:02 - 00:37:18:00

Ronald Rolheiser

That's a very good question. And actually, that's not a hard question to answer because Paul gave us the answer. You know, remember, Saint Paul says, when I don't know how to pray, then the Holy Spirit and groans that are too deep for words prays through me, see? So that, for instance, when you're groaning and suffering and so on.

00:37:19:16 - 00:37:45:20

Ronald Rolheiser

That is a prayer. You know, I hope your audience aren't going to be scandalized. It's sometimes the difference between swearing and praying is there's no difference. It's like, God, why is this happening to me? So that's the prayer. That's your body. That's your inside responding, you know. So when Saint Paul says, when I don't know how to pray, then the Holy Spirit and groans that are too deep for words, you know, prays through me.

00:37:45:20 - 00:37:52:05

Ronald Rolheiser

So sometimes we just say, Jesus Christ, you know something? Is that a swear word or is it a prayer?

00:37:52:07 - 00:38:06:02

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, because I think frequently people feel guilty, like, oh, I shouldn't be angry at God or I shouldn't curse the heavens or something, but it's like, that's actually quite scriptural. Have you read the Psalms? You know?

00:38:06:04 - 00:38:30:24

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah. And you don't see sometimes your body, you're so it's just reacting if you when, when you groan, I know that you groan under pain. That's a prayer. That is prayer. Like you don't have to turn that into pray. Don't say, well, like I was suffering and now I'm going to pray about it and so on that, I mean, you can do that secondarily and as you know, secondary movement, but just the groaning itself, the groan, oh my God, why is this happening to me?

00:38:30:24 - 00:38:50:04

Ronald Rolheiser

And so on. That is the prayer, you know, just keep repeating when I don't know how to pray. The Holy Spirit in in groans that are too deep for words, you know, for some reason, any words you just you just don't use them. How can this all be happening to me? And so on. that is the prayer.

00:38:50:06 - 00:38:52:07

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I love that because.

00:38:52:07 - 00:39:17:00

Ronald Rolheiser

You remember it. Oh go ahead, Kelly, the oldest definition of prayer and it's still one of the best ones ever, is that prayer is lifting mind and heart to God. So we're not just lifting praise and thanksgiving, you're also lifting pain and bitterness and anger and so on. you know, it's it's every movement inside of us, every emotion, every reaction is a is an opening to prayer?

00:39:17:00 - 00:39:18:01

Ronald Rolheiser

Potentially.

00:39:18:03 - 00:39:35:04

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Yes. And it doesn't have to use words. It's it's really just that that gesture of lifting, of offering of, whatever that interior movement is. And sometimes when we're so verbal, we, we forget that that, that that counts, you know, that that is. Yeah, part of it.

00:39:35:26 - 00:39:47:06

Ronald Rolheiser

so that I know this is terrible. You say we say Jesus name sometimes in reverence and sometimes not in reference, but you're still invoking God in Jesus, you know.

00:39:47:09 - 00:40:17:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of Theresa was Sue's definition, you know, a surge of the heart like a, cry towards heaven. That's a lovely and simple definition of what that is. one other question that I have been, wanting to ask is, well, maybe I'll put this in two parts. I want to know the holiest person you've ever met and what surprised you about them, whether that was early on in life or, you know, something later.

00:40:18:18 - 00:40:31:13

Kelly Deutsch

and then the second part of the question will be who is someone who is deceased, who you find, you know, either the holiest person or someone that really speaks to you, whether it's a mystic or a writer or something that's so alive and deceased.

00:40:31:15 - 00:40:54:16

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, you had sent me a list of questions I looked at, and that one really stopped me. But in a in a good way to thought it was. And so I thought, I want to rephrase that. I mean, I'm gonna it might not sit because normally when we think of holiness, we think of like, obviously the Mother Teresa stayed on the overt figures of holiness and so on.

00:40:55:06 - 00:41:11:21

Ronald Rolheiser

but I want to I would ask myself the question this way, who would I want to be across the table from? From all eternity? But what didn't want to be Mother Teresa? Or like who? Who would I want to be sitting beside at the banquet table, who don't want to spend eternity with, you know, and that put it differently.

00:41:11:21 - 00:41:29:29

Ronald Rolheiser

You know, would give you a different series of questions you don't see, see. So for me, you know, I grew up and maybe grew up the same way where holiness always meant there, set apart, you know, it's you. You immediately think of Mother Teresa immediately. You think of some saint, somebody you know who's, you know, and I don't doubt they're holy, you know?

00:41:30:24 - 00:41:57:22

Ronald Rolheiser

so if you say to me who's the holiest person you've ever met, alive, you know, well, I thought of two people, a man and a woman. And the man I thought of. Is that your superior gentleman in Rome, Louis Logan? Louis is the most unassuming human, gracious, open. you know, Louis has no faults, you know, but but he he he doesn't look like Mother Teresa.

00:41:57:29 - 00:42:19:17

Ronald Rolheiser

He he looks very human. And, you know, you'd always want to sit beside him at the table, you know? and he never puts people down. He doesn't cost me sense of humor. It's very simple. Living man. And so on. very bright, but doesn't know it, you know, you know, you know, but he's just he's a happy person.

00:42:20:14 - 00:42:57:01

Ronald Rolheiser

and there's a woman I know in, in Edmonton who have good family friends who actually had a tragic background. You know, when she was a young girl in England, she was raped and beaten, that she spent a year in the hospital recovering. And today, she's probably the happiest person I know. She's married, kid's grandmother. But the same thing, there's just there's just a warmth and a graciousness, a sense of humor, you know, an openness like, lots of laughter, you know, lots of warmth, deep spiritually, you know, see, so I guess that process of who would I want to be across the table from?

00:42:57:03 - 00:43:09:05

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah, for a long, long time, you know, and and no offense to Mother Teresa. I'd like to see a lot of Mother Teresa and go to a different table. If you know where I.

00:43:09:05 - 00:43:11:02

Kelly Deutsch

Am to her and move along.

00:43:11:02 - 00:43:39:11

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah. Kind of, you know, no doubt she's holy. But, you know, there was. That was a good question because it got me thinking, you know, I also thought of my dad. My dad was a wonderful man. and, maybe the most moral man I ever met, but, you know, he, But, And I wouldn't mind spending eternity with my dad, but my my dad was more stoic, you know, we used to tease, and we said his his his only excesses.

00:43:39:11 - 00:43:42:10

Ronald Rolheiser

Moderation.

00:43:42:12 - 00:44:04:13

Ronald Rolheiser

And and. Yeah. But. So that's a good question and you know. Well because and keep asking people that because I think immediately think holy you think of the Mother Teresa's and so on. I thought I'm going to rephrase that for myself. Like who do I want to sit beside for all eternity? at a table, I want to say hello to Mother Teresa, but I want to go to a different table.

00:44:04:15 - 00:44:04:29

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:44:05:02 - 00:44:06:05

Ronald Rolheiser

I don't know well enough.

00:44:06:08 - 00:44:27:12

Kelly Deutsch

I love those, maybe not criteria, but at least qualities that you name of, of a holy person or a contemplative person. Kind of like, Carlos mother, you know, where it's like, you know who who's the person who is being unselfish, but, you know, naming out warmth, a sense of humor, just kind of a unassuming nature.

00:44:27:12 - 00:44:30:17

Kelly Deutsch

Like, they're just very much themselves, you know, and I remember, and.

00:44:30:19 - 00:44:34:00

Ronald Rolheiser

You're completely comfortable with. You're always completely comfortable with him.

00:44:34:00 - 00:44:57:08

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. And I love that because it it makes holiness not something again, set apart or out there like, oh, to be this great contemplative means that you have to spend hours a day in silence and you're kind of somber, you know, in your demeanor like, you know, I think an over seriousness, it can also be a sign of like, oh, maybe they take themselves a little, a little too seriously.

00:44:57:08 - 00:45:20:13

Kelly Deutsch

And that's something that, you know, might be a fault. I don't know, depends on the person. But, recognizing that there is a very, I don't know, great sense of ease about people who who are spiritually mature rather than any kind of pretentiousness or, yeah, kind of set of partners that I can't quite reach, you know?

00:45:20:19 - 00:45:22:29

Kelly Deutsch

So yeah, I like that.

00:45:23:02 - 00:45:24:16

Ronald Rolheiser

That was a good question. That was a.

00:45:24:18 - 00:45:35:11

Kelly Deutsch

Good, how about deceased? Who would you say are 1 or 2 of the most important figures in your own spirituality?

00:45:35:13 - 00:46:02:06

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, you know, it's it's interesting. You know, you have the greats, you know, so that, for instance, I've been deeply influenced by John of the cross. I've been very deep with my. Those are my two favorite, like, classical mystics. And then going back to earlier Saint Augustine. So probably the three great historical figures Augustine, John of the cross threads of as you somewhat by Julian of Norwich, although I haven't read as closely and so on, but just more close to the whole.

00:46:02:09 - 00:46:25:25

Ronald Rolheiser

In fact, I just thought the other day, I want to read an article on this, you know, who are my contemporary? I'm going to need three of them, you know, one of them is Henry. Now, you know Henry not I knew Henry, but I knew his life. Henry was this top, complex, complex man. You know, Henry was like a crisis looking to happen, but deeply sincere.

00:46:25:27 - 00:46:49:13

Ronald Rolheiser

Always in a crisis, loving and a mystic, you know? but but life was never easy for him. But somehow he should. I could pull this off in all this complexity, you know? and so, you know, he is deeply influenced me. And he, you know, there's rarely a day goes by. I don't refer to him, report him in some way.

00:46:49:19 - 00:47:28:07

Ronald Rolheiser

So on. the second one is, is a man that you're familiar with, Daniel Berrigan, that, you know, that Daniel Berrigan, you know, just, well, he his thing to the poor. But beyond that, he was an incredible poet and writer as a young man, he that God was envious of his talent, you know, but also, Daniel Berrigan was the first person who fought, who could, who could make a poetry out of celibacy and loneliness, you know, thought, you know, God, you know, he there's there's something, he to be kind of a lonely prophet.

00:47:28:07 - 00:47:45:06

Ronald Rolheiser

And so I hope he he could put some some, but I just admired his, his, what he did. And so on, his wisdom, his great sense of humor and so on. And the last. Would any of you have heard of her? She just died two years ago. Very young. Is, Rachel Held Evans?

00:47:45:08 - 00:47:45:28

Kelly Deutsch

Oh, yes.

00:47:46:06 - 00:48:29:16

Ronald Rolheiser

She was an evangelical writer who died at age 37. I mean, I she's in my prayers every day. she's this young woman who just. She it she was kind of the treasure of leisure of our time, you know, and writing a different. So if you take instance, a couple of her books In Search of Sundays, that could be today's story of, you know, the story of a soul, you know, you know, see, in all three of them, there was a powerful humanity and a powerful faith that, you know, that, there were three faith filled people, you know, none of whom had an easy life.

00:48:31:00 - 00:48:53:00

Ronald Rolheiser

each of them kind of modeled setting for sanctity for today, you know, you know, with Paragon, I, you know, I never met Paragon. but maybe I was just blown away sometimes by his poetry and his idealism and so on. but, you know, I had a priest friend who himself got shot to death, in Guatemala.

00:48:53:23 - 00:49:14:21

Ronald Rolheiser

one of our bullets, Larry Rose. But. But he went to prison a couple times. To the arrogance, you know, and he tell me a lot of stories about Daniel. he said before they would do an act, they would pray the whole night set in the morning, they would get up in. They'd see mass, they'd put in their mass vestments, the Walk of Prostitutes act to burn bathhouse.

00:49:14:23 - 00:49:32:28

Ronald Rolheiser

And Daniel, I would say, said Larry, if you can't do this without getting angry and bitter at the people arrest you, don't do it. So don't. Another angry man. You know, there was a there was also a deep kind of a secret to him and so on. And, and his nonviolence and so on. I've also been influenced by Dorothy Day.

00:49:32:29 - 00:49:53:23

Ronald Rolheiser

I'm doing more and more reading of Dorothy Day. But, I didn't have as much natural affinity to Dorothy as I do to Berrigan now. And and now when I met a couple of times. but some of we have so many mutual friends that I just know all of Henry's struggles, which were massive. But he was a saint in progress, but he always stayed with it.

00:49:54:16 - 00:50:02:27

Ronald Rolheiser

and so he was just complex in some ways. Tortured man who wrote these incredible books but died and died in fidelity.

00:50:03:00 - 00:50:27:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I, I love I love the contemporary examples because we do get more of that complexity. I think a lot of the ones who are, you know, from hundreds of years ago, we have them only through filters and, you know, writings and kind of get the hagiography of like, oh, they just like had the perfume of sanctity since they were an infant, you know, and you're like, oh, okay.

00:50:27:00 - 00:50:47:20

Kelly Deutsch

Well, that's not me. but to find the people who are more complex, I mean, I love that about Torres as well. I mean, that she I she was my confirmation saint. I like I read her story of a soul when I was 14. And I remember being so offended in my religious community the first time I heard somebody say, like, you know, she was kind of psychotic, right?

00:50:47:22 - 00:51:03:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I was like, I felt so offended. But then it eventually came around to like, actually, that gives me hope. You know, if if Torres struggle with psychosis, then there's hope for all of us, you know, because we've all got our psychosis and kind of,

00:51:03:15 - 00:51:29:08

Ronald Rolheiser

What do you know? One of the things I really like about Torres. Because it took me a while to like her. Because if you just. If you read her superficially, she can come across. And plus, piety has kind of encrusted her with so much piety when we read her, you know, there's an incredible complexity of this person. You know, for instance, she's always the pious little girl, and she's also Sofia, you know, you know, and there there is a, a little girl in her begging for affection.

00:51:29:11 - 00:51:59:09

Ronald Rolheiser

There's also like, she's always the opposite of all of that, you know? And the same with Henry. Now, you know, you're just they're really complex, you know, and so that their life wasn't simple, like, it wasn't so simple as they made it sound and so on. and, but, you know, now I don't she, she she's my mystic, you know, I'll tell you a quick story on her, just not not on her, but, you know, the story of a soul.

00:51:59:09 - 00:52:22:06

Ronald Rolheiser

And I try to reread it maybe every 2 or 3 years during a lot of books I reread. And, but some years ago, I had a psychologist friend who was really a crack psychologist, the West Coast, and, and he was dying. You're the same age, was dying at age 53, and he was dying of cancer, you know, and people bring in books to read, and he could read at one point said, the only thing I can still read when I'm dying is you.

00:52:22:09 - 00:52:40:18

Ronald Rolheiser

You said, you know, she cuts away all the crap. So when when you're dying, you know, there's no lot of literature makes sense to you, you know, said there was the one book he kept, you know, and he wasn't a particular religious man. It's just, I was really struck by I said, that's the one book and still read.

00:52:40:21 - 00:52:43:18

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah, but it ran on steam.

00:52:43:20 - 00:52:56:23

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, I love that. And there is such great simplicity in her. yeah. In our, in our women mystics school which both of us will be speaking out, I'll be doing Teresa on, on her face down first. and then.

00:52:56:24 - 00:52:59:08

Ronald Rolheiser

We have make sure you send me a link because I want to I want to listen to that.

00:52:59:09 - 00:53:21:18

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Yes, absolutely. I will do that. and we have you speaking about Ruth Burrows, coming up here in September. And I'm curious, for those who have never heard of Ruth, what would be, you know, a couple sentences that you would say, like why she is an important mystic, amongst all of these greats. Why why should people know about Ruth?

00:53:21:20 - 00:53:31:07

Ronald Rolheiser

A couple of things. first of all, she's a Carmelite, and is the contemporary Carmelite author. Ruth just turned 99. Okay.

00:53:31:10 - 00:53:34:05

Kelly Deutsch

Just that's one incredible thing. That she's still alive.

00:53:34:11 - 00:53:57:09

Ronald Rolheiser

Yeah. You know, and and, but she's a true mystic. I mean, I'll just give you again, because we've talked about this all afternoon here. you know, I first got interested in her. I was in a bookstore. I didn't know who she was. Picked up her autobiography, and these were the first lines. I thought, I'm going to read this.

00:53:57:11 - 00:54:25:18

Ronald Rolheiser

She says I was born into his life with a tortured sensitivity, and my life has been a struggle. I thought he noticed that I wasn't serene, I says. I was born, and so she tells her story and she became this great mystic. But I was born at this life with a tortured sensitivity. I twice went to see her in England, one time did a retreat, and she's just this incredibly, deep, marvelous woman.

00:54:26:07 - 00:54:48:26

Ronald Rolheiser

some of your viewers may know Wendy Beckett, the art critic sister. See, she lived with, Ruth Burrows monastery. and it's one of the that that that. And she was a mystic to shoot. She was one of the people that the they they did mystical writings together and, collaborated on and so on. And, Orbis Press is just coming up with that one.

00:54:48:26 - 00:55:18:07

Ronald Rolheiser

They'll huge Book of letters of Sister Wendy and, Wendy Beckett, the art critic. but but Ruth is, She's a contemporary mystic. She's still alive. and there's a clarity in her, she can actually be difficult to read sometimes. She's not an easy. She's a straight shooter. You know, you you mentioned that people said they found you psychotic.

00:55:18:09 - 00:55:28:13

Ronald Rolheiser

This is Ruth. Something on Teresa of Avila. So? So Teresa was one of the most neurotic women who ever lived. She was a saint.

00:55:28:15 - 00:55:48:01

Ronald Rolheiser

Among other things that may interest you, she had a photographic study of Teresa. Zero. Because remember, we have hundreds of pictures of Teresa for zero, you know, and Ruth did a photographic study of that, and she she came up with this. She said, you know, when you look at you and all the photographs individual with the group, she's always deeply alone.

00:55:48:03 - 00:56:12:20

Ronald Rolheiser

There's an aloneness to her that, even when she's in a photograph and, and when she was in community, she was one of the most communitarian of all the nuns. But you look at her photographs, and she was always deeply, deeply alone. see, so she's a contemporary Carmelite Carmelite devotion, but she also writes her own mysticism.

00:56:12:22 - 00:56:30:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to learning more about her because I know I've heard people talking about Ruth Burrows, like in some of the circles of like center for Action and Contemplation. And other people are slowly discovering her works. And so I'm excited to be able to share her with a wider audience. I think that'll be quite wonderful.

00:56:31:00 - 00:56:32:21

Ronald Rolheiser

I hope she's still alive in September.

00:56:32:21 - 00:56:46:00

Kelly Deutsch

Soon I do too. we are almost on time here. But before we wrap up today, Ron, if people want to learn more about you and your books and what you're up to, where should they go?

00:56:46:03 - 00:57:07:14

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, I have a website. If you just go to, to, Google and type in Ron roll history.com and you more stuff is going to come up than you ever want to know about and so on. but, you know, I've been writing a newspaper column for more than 40 years or 40, and it's, exactly 40 years this year.

00:57:07:16 - 00:57:25:16

Ronald Rolheiser

Wow. And, you know, there's that there's an archives on there, different articles box. and as well that, you know, and you've met Joanne, there's a, there's a full time Christians running all of this and she can she does Facebook. And where I am at and so on. So

00:57:25:18 - 00:57:27:03

Kelly Deutsch

Wonderful keeps tabs on, you.

00:57:27:05 - 00:57:28:11

Ronald Rolheiser

Know,

00:57:28:14 - 00:57:47:06

Kelly Deutsch

That's excellent. And if anyone listening wants to join us for women, mystics, whether for Ruth Burroughs or Torres or any of the classes that we're having, we're having a once a month, class on a different female mystic. And you can find out more about that at Women mystics.org. I think I'm, I'm very excited for the, for the upcoming classes.

00:57:47:06 - 00:58:00:03

Kelly Deutsch

So I can't wait to hear and learn more about Ruth. So Ron, thank you so much for joining us today and entertaining all of our questions and, wanderings into mysticism and divine union. It's been a delight.

00:58:00:06 - 00:58:05:09

Ronald Rolheiser

Well, I'm going to have to ask you sometime, honey, who is your the holiest person you've ever met and why you.

00:58:05:09 - 00:58:39:10

Kelly Deutsch

Know, yes, I'm going to have to think about that. I need to think about the questions that I pose to other people, so I'm prepared to answer them in return. but I would probably respond with qualities that are quite similar, like people who are very grounded and down to earth. And I can think of, a few people, a good friend who's a mother, a friend who is in the religious community I was with over in Rome, who are just very simple, grounded, have a great sense of humor, and are very good at being present.

00:58:39:12 - 00:58:41:02

Kelly Deutsch

I think that's thanks going.