The Accidental Hermit

Tessa Bielecki is a hermit with a crackling vitality. She prays the Jesus prayer while she’s swimming her daily laps and says that sometimes she talks too much (with a sparkle in her eye). She didn’t set out to be a hermit–but when she met the Carmelite William McNamara, she said she had never met anyone more ALIVE. Together they would begin several communities of hermits in the desert, mountains, and forest. Steeped in the contemplative tradition, they would blend together the spirituality of the Celtics, Carmelites, and Desert Mothers and Fathers. What does a hermit’s life look like? Why would they choose that lifestyle? And what might they teach the rest of us living in the world? Join us on the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast to find out! *** Tessa Bielecki is the co-founder of the Desert Foundation (www.sandandsky.org). She calls Teresa of Avila her best friend, and has written several books on the mystic (including Teresa of Avila: Mystical Writings, Holy

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:15

Kelly Deutsch

Hello everyone and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust Podcast. I am your host, Kelly Deutsch, and today I have joining me a very special guest, Tessa Galecki. Now Tessa is a hermit, which most of you probably have never met a hermit in your life. And Tesla has a really unique background in her medical life. she, she has blended together in her life these various streams of the contemplative tradition.

00:00:29:17 - 00:00:53:07

Kelly Deutsch

She's got this Carmelite stream, you know, like Teresa of Avila and John of the cross. You've got the Celtic, but you've also got these desert mothers and fathers. And so she's lived for over 50 years in the wilderness all over in the US, Canada, Ireland, deserts, mountains, woods, all over. And she was for a long time the mother abbots of a monastic community of both men and women.

00:00:53:07 - 00:01:18:18

Kelly Deutsch

For over 40 years, and then went on to create or co-create the Desert Foundation, which I'm interested to hear more about today. She's written several books, especially on Teresa of Avila. And Tessa is also going to be our presenter on Teresa of Avila soon and The Women Mystic School. So I'm excited to hear more about that. So I'm thrilled to have Tessa with us here today.

00:01:18:18 - 00:01:31:16

Kelly Deutsch

She's living her life as an urban hermit in in Arizona today, and I'm so excited to just hear about your life, your story and all that you have to teach us about the contemplative life. So, Tessa, welcome.

00:01:31:18 - 00:01:37:14

Tessa Bielecki

Thank you. that sounds fascinating. Oh, well.

00:01:37:19 - 00:01:55:29

Kelly Deutsch

Lots of fun. Oh, good. Well, I'm curious, Tessa, how you first discerned a call to become a hermit. Because this is something that's so out of the ordinary for most people. Was it something you were thinking about, or how does that kind of, like, even come onto a person's radar?

00:01:56:02 - 00:02:28:04

Tessa Bielecki

Yes, I think first of all, the word is weird. You know, it conjures up strange things. You know, years ago, I actually looked it up in the dictionary and literally Webster's Dictionary described the hermit as somebody anti-social, who grows his hair long and his fingernails long. And I just I just really laughed at that. I, I'm an accidental hermit.

00:02:28:06 - 00:02:58:03

Tessa Bielecki

Okay. I didn't set out to be a hermit. I didn't set out to be a monk. I didn't set out to be, a religious person. in my community, we actually, we women called ourselves nunchucks, which was a cross between a monk and a nun because we weren't exactly funny. so we needed a we just needed a new word and.

00:02:58:06 - 00:03:28:27

Tessa Bielecki

That's such a huge question. I think it's better to use the word solitary hmhm. Because solitude is a human thing. The hermit has over layers of of meanings, a lot of which are spooky, as we see from the dictionary definition. But solitude is is our birthright as human beings, and it's a natural and congenial, human experience.

00:03:28:29 - 00:04:02:12

Tessa Bielecki

And that's really what being a hermit is about. I'll I'll come back to that more. But so what what interested me above all, all my life is life itself. I just have always wanted to live and and live life to the hilt. And when I was in college, I, I had always been a dutiful Catholic, very happy Catholic.

00:04:02:12 - 00:04:28:27

Tessa Bielecki

I have no more stories to tell. I never went to public schools. and I think part of the reason also, I was a happy Catholic is I went to a Polish parent. My background is my ethnic heritage is Polish, and I meet solid Polish. Every one of my mother's sisters married somebody, Polish every one of my fathers, brothers and sisters married somebody Polish.

00:04:28:27 - 00:05:14:04

Tessa Bielecki

So it was a solid block. And we went to a Polish church. So my whole formation growing up, all I heard was either Latin or Polish. And I actually think that was a significant part of my, my growing into the contemplative life without realizing it, because my mind was being transcended all the time. Words were being transcended, and I was experiencing the spiritual life on a, on a, on a, much more visceral, holistic level.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:45:24

Tessa Bielecki

so I, I often laugh and say, you know, I became, I grew more contemplatively because I didn't know what was going on with my mind. So a it was a heart thing. It was a feeling thing. And, you know, Polish people, have very profound faith. And it was so profound. A lot of the people in my church growing up had survived the horrors of World War two.

00:05:45:27 - 00:06:13:05

Tessa Bielecki

And, and, and so there was a very powerful faith that you could almost reach out and touch. when I would go to church and I was, you know, I, I couldn't have said this at the time, but as I think back on it now, I realize I was just just absorbing all of this, in the depths of my whole, whole body person.

00:06:13:07 - 00:06:43:17

Tessa Bielecki

So what I wanted was to really live. And I went to a Catholic college because now who knows where this came from. But all of a sudden, I had never had any Catholic education except Saturday morning catechism. And I like, where did this line come from? It it had to have been, I think and I'm going to talk about locutions.

00:06:43:19 - 00:07:11:15

Tessa Bielecki

That's the technical, mystical word. You know, the Bushmen in Africa call about tapping. Talk about tapping. I, I noticed in your book, which I enjoyed very much, you used the word inklings. you know, we get these signals, we get these messages. I think we're getting them all the time. And how to pay attention is what's important. But I, I, I got this idea.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:48:01

Tessa Bielecki

I need to go to a Catholic college to, get the intellectual groundings of my faith. Okay. Where did a line like that come from? But there it was. So I went to a place in Washington, DC called Trinity College. It's now called Trinity Washington University. It's quite different from when I went and my education was fabulous. I got this incredible theological education that was taught by the nuns.

00:07:48:03 - 00:08:20:29

Tessa Bielecki

And, it was I was in college from 62 to 66. So Vatican two was happening. The church's very excited, seeing wonderful things are happening. And those cutting edge nuns, sisters of Notre Dame, Dunmore, were teaching cutting edge theology were reading Carl Reiner and Hans Kong and tired teacher Dan and and and some of them I got to meet because they came to Washington to speak and we all went.

00:08:21:01 - 00:08:59:29

Tessa Bielecki

So it was it was just electrifying. Yeah. Very electrifying. And in college, I it was partly the, the foundation that I had gotten in my family and, and in my, parish church, and then I got this intellectual grounding, and then I just had this huge awakening where suddenly Christ was super alive to me. And I was just passionately in love, and I couldn't get enough.

00:09:01:07 - 00:09:26:28

Tessa Bielecki

I spent my time going up to Catholic University and hanging out in the cafeteria with all these seminarians, who studied all around Siu and Trinity was right next door to it. And so we were constantly talking about these things, and it it was fabulous. and but but through it all, what it was all about coming alive to me.

00:09:27:00 - 00:10:01:25

Tessa Bielecki

And then we were, in my junior year, we were going to have a retreat. as we did every year. And they said that the, the retreat master, whose name was William McNamara, was, hermit. And I thought, oh, my gosh, that is just so irrelevant. What can he possibly have to say? And, I was also I was, but I, I of course, I made the retreat because I was, I really was a goody two shoes.

00:10:01:27 - 00:10:37:00

Tessa Bielecki

So I would never think about not doing it. And the minute he, walked out onto the altar the first night again, it was, it was my first message. Let me just say a message of revelation that I really recognized it. And the message was, this was I really felt God speaking to me, saying, this is the man and this is your life.

00:10:37:02 - 00:11:15:27

Tessa Bielecki

Wow. was extremely powerful. And part of it was, first of all, it was a very dramatic, charismatic looking guy. Kind of, you know, years later then, because I hadn't read Tolkien yet, but he had a Gandalf quality about, you know, long brown Carmelite robes and, just that, that, a magical quality. And he knelt down and said a prayer, which I can still remember.

00:11:15:29 - 00:11:45:18

Tessa Bielecki

It was I'll just I'll just do the first lines. oh. Jesus. Enable us by means of all the things that are to grow in you. And it went on a little bit, and I was stunned by the all the things that are not so-called spiritual things, not religious things, but by means of all the things that are.

00:11:45:20 - 00:12:18:05

Tessa Bielecki

Let me grow in you that just blew me away. And then he stood up and said, the title of this retreat is Christian Humanism. And that was it. It was about his, his his breakthrough book. It's extremely out of date now, but his breakthrough book was called the Art of Being Human, which came out pre Vatican two. Nobody was talking about the import, the fundamentals.

00:12:18:18 - 00:12:21:18

Tessa Bielecki

business of being human is how we begin.

00:12:21:25 - 00:12:23:10

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:12:23:12 - 00:12:54:22

Tessa Bielecki

And that was my nature. That was my instinct. Again, I couldn't have talked this at the time, but he gave words to to something that was just very, it was a seed in me, and I recognized it, and that's what got me it. I was interested in life, and I had never I had never met anyone as alive as he was.

00:12:56:10 - 00:13:22:11

Tessa Bielecki

and the way I would put it, I even put it this way then I think I thought that holiness and vitality were mutually exclusive categories. until not only did I hear somebody bringing these two together, but embodying it. so you ask, so why did I become a hermit? Well, that that just all grew out of the fact that I wanted to be fully alive.

00:13:23:25 - 00:13:52:13

Tessa Bielecki

and I didn't wasn't interested in religious life. I wasn't interested in monastic life. I couldn't that was the furthest thing from my thought. What I wanted to do was live. And this man embodied all that vitality. So I followed him, and, he was in Sedona, Arizona at the time. He had a vision for something called the Spiritual Life Institute.

00:13:52:13 - 00:14:28:25

Tessa Bielecki

It was very, it was a beautiful vision, but it wasn't, manifested much until I got there. And I think there is a special something that happens between men and women. I mean, for some people, it's, it issues in the generativity of of children, in other relationships. It it's still every bit as generative, but it generates something else.

00:14:28:27 - 00:14:56:22

Tessa Bielecki

So we were this terrific combo because he had this vision. He had no idea how to incarnate it, give it a body, which I think is what women do. And that's what I did. But it was this very organic thing. This is why it was so exciting, because, we were we were just creating something. it.

00:14:56:22 - 00:15:33:00

Tessa Bielecki

Yes. It had Carmelite roots. Yes. It had roots in the desert tradition. But we were creating something new and it was tremendously exciting. And bit by bit, you know, people, other people came and, the whole Spiritual Life Institute unfolded. And by the end, we had we had created four centers, you know, in three different countries. We built we built a contemplative center at the rate of one a decade.

00:15:35:12 - 00:16:10:22

Tessa Bielecki

Saint Teresa did more than that, but, but a lot of it we built from scratch. I mean, we did. I mean, it was totally hands on. We're we're planting gardens, were building buildings were. We were doing everything ourselves. And, and it's very, it's very on my mind. Let me just say this and then we can come back to it because I am talking to you on, it's just a couple of days after the 50th anniversary of our starting our place in Nova Scotia.

00:16:10:24 - 00:16:41:20

Tessa Bielecki

So I'm full of memories. I've been poring over photos I just put. I decided to to put ten days of posts on Facebook, just showing photos and talking about the life. And I'm astounded at the traffic I'm getting. I mean, because people are just so keenly interested and lots of people who had been there whose lives had been affected by making a retreat there were responding.

00:16:41:20 - 00:17:06:18

Tessa Bielecki

And then perfect strangers are responding. So, it's it's very on my mind. what what an exciting adventure this was. Besides the fact that I'm 78 and it's time to be looking back and writing a memoir about all this. and the story is huge and quite wondrous and also painful. And we'll get to that as you as we proceed.

00:17:06:26 - 00:17:07:15

Tessa Bielecki

Sure.

00:17:07:15 - 00:17:54:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I just wanted to highlight that, vitality that you speak about being fully alive and fully human. I think that's something that, so many people miss in the Christian tradition, which I think is such a tragedy because, I similarly had a very positive experience with Catholicism. for the most part, I mean, I can share my story and at a time, but something that I so appreciated about that kind of formation was how how fully human and, how it was wrapped up with everything in life, you know, from the slug outside to, you know, my lamp here, like, everything is a conduit for the divine.

00:17:54:09 - 00:18:20:06

Kelly Deutsch

And I love I mean, we call that pan and deism, right? Like the divine in all things. But I think the Celtic tradition is great at acknowledging that. I think indigenous traditions are great at acknowledging that. And really, seeing the sacredness, like just kind of how you said that in the past you thought that holiness and aliveness were kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum, instead of recognizing that they're one in the same.

00:18:20:08 - 00:18:41:02

Kelly Deutsch

And I remember my when I was in the convent in Rome, I had a spiritual director who, as I was grappling with all of this and like, what does it mean to be like, you know, a celibate person? And how do I live like my sexuality and how do I live, you know, all of these different things. As a nun, he was like, Kelly, whatever is deeply human is deeply holy.

00:18:41:04 - 00:18:41:21

Kelly Deutsch

And I was like.

00:18:41:21 - 00:19:12:28

Tessa Bielecki

Yeah, yes. So there you have it. See, that's a fabulous line. Yes, yes. Well, see, I think Christianity, when we messed up pretty early on and became life denying and there are ways to trace how that happened. But my favorite passage from the scriptures, from, from the, from the New Testament is in the old. It's the only one where I know the actual resource because it's easy.

00:19:12:28 - 00:19:33:10

Tessa Bielecki

1010 the reference. John 1010 I've come that you may have life and have it to the full. How did we lose that every notice? How many times in the gospel Jesus is saying, life, I'm the way, the truth, and the life I've come that you may have life. I'm the bread of life. It's all about life.

00:19:33:12 - 00:20:09:27

Tessa Bielecki

And and we lost that and became so cynical in life denying. Which is why I wanted nothing to do with religious life. Because it repelled me. That was just, I really, it makes no sense. So it just makes no sense. And I think what is being, recaptured today? by by younger people, by the new monastic movement, in the virtual movement, whatever you want to call it.

00:20:09:27 - 00:20:38:01

Tessa Bielecki

We can come back to that. And in the rejection of Christianity, it's being rejected as life denying. Besides, all the horrible crimes we've committed. we can come back to that, too, but it's. I think we're recovering this, because it's an instinct in every one of we know. We know that that wasn't right. Yes. Discipline is one thing.

00:20:41:06 - 00:21:15:01

Tessa Bielecki

we need our exercise, and we need to eat healthily, but we need, You see, Father William taught that asceticism was not punitive. We were not punishing bad bodies. Oh, gosh, now I'm losing what word it was. But. But it's about enhancing life. It's for the sake of greater life. discipline. It's like train ING the way an athlete trains your your pushing yourself in certain ways because you're training for more vitality.

00:21:15:03 - 00:21:41:12

Tessa Bielecki

You're not punishing yourself because you're bad. Yeah. Yeah. See I see and I never had that punishing stuff. My I think there are some other ethnicities. well let me just be specific. You know, my Irish friends grew up, with a lot of guilt, which I did not grow up with, and a sense of punishment.

00:21:41:13 - 00:21:49:16

Tessa Bielecki

And, And that wasn't Celtic. That wasn't Irish. That's French. Jansen is.

00:21:49:17 - 00:21:51:10

Kelly Deutsch

I was going to say, listen, Jansen is a.

00:21:51:12 - 00:22:19:19

Tessa Bielecki

Suggestion to listen. And I think what a lot of historically, what people don't realize is that when the British, were persecuting the Irish, and the Irish could not they, they sent their, their candidates for priesthood over to France, be trained. And they picked up this heresy, which was body bad, life denying, dualistic split between matter and spirit.

00:22:19:22 - 00:22:43:05

Tessa Bielecki

Then that comes in and infects the Irish people and then the Irish priests come to America. And so that's the kind of Catholicism that a lot of people were exposed to. But I wasn't I got to tell you this, my dad was, well, he was a doctor, but he was the first person in his family to go to college.

00:22:43:05 - 00:23:13:03

Tessa Bielecki

And, you know, I come from just simple peasant background, you know, hard working, peasant people who made their way as immigrants in the early 1900s. But my so my dad was very streets grew up on the streets of Jersey city, shooting craps, actually, and but he had this great line, and I was just stunned when it came out of his mouth.

00:23:13:03 - 00:23:37:11

Tessa Bielecki

And he said, you know, daughter, you know what's wrong with the church in America? We got, you know, what's wrong with the church? We got too many Italians in Rome, and we got too many Irish in America. As I mean, that came out of some of his own ethnic prejudice. But wow, was that profound. and I just think that's, sums up a lot.

00:23:37:14 - 00:23:39:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, that's a very. So anyway.

00:23:39:17 - 00:23:54:09

Tessa Bielecki

Christianity life affirming, life affirming. And that was what Father William represented to me. That was what Spiritual Life Institute was trying to do. And that's why people were so attracted to us. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that.

00:23:54:09 - 00:23:55:23

Kelly Deutsch

Like what did you.

00:23:55:25 - 00:23:56:08

Tessa Bielecki

What was.

00:23:56:08 - 00:24:03:04

Kelly Deutsch

Life like at the spiritual life Institute and what lessons did you learn there that you still carry with you today?

00:24:03:07 - 00:24:23:24

Tessa Bielecki

Oh, I carry the way I live is exactly how I used to live, which is part of what's fascinating me. That's kind of how I'm trying to, focus my memoir. first of all, when I joined, there was nothing we didn't even have. we didn't have a chapel. We didn't have a way of life.

00:24:23:24 - 00:24:30:26

Tessa Bielecki

We hadn't even taken on the monastic form yet. it was kind of. It was all amorphous.

00:24:30:26 - 00:24:32:16

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. You're doing something so new.

00:24:32:20 - 00:25:05:19

Tessa Bielecki

Oh, yeah, it was all amorphous, and, it was bit by bit gradual. I, eventually let me cut to the chase because, although I want to get specific about the solitude because I, I knew nothing about. I had no solitude. The so-called hermitage I was in was the kitchen, the dining room, the library, the office, the gathering room, everything.

00:25:05:21 - 00:25:41:13

Tessa Bielecki

So I had to fight to be alone in those early years. And it was it was very difficult. However, it illustrates that the this fundamental principle in the, Christian tradition, which is you do not move into solitude until you have first been, formed and purified in community life. and then out of that rich, generous community life, your, your life of solitude grows.

00:25:41:15 - 00:26:09:24

Tessa Bielecki

So, you know, we started out I'll come back to the whole way of life in a minute. But like we started out with one hour of solitude a day eventually, you know, because all we did was work. We're building, we're growing gardens, we're taking care of retreats. We're we're we're just getting going here. So it started just an hour a day, and then it became an afternoon a week.

00:26:09:27 - 00:26:38:11

Tessa Bielecki

And then it became a full day, a week, which we called a desert day. And eventually it was two weeks. Two weeks of you? No, a week of every month. and in special times like Advent and Lent, it was two weeks. So we took it on more and more. And then the retreats, who came live? The same rhythm.

00:26:38:13 - 00:27:03:03

Tessa Bielecki

And that's why they came to us. People came because they were interested in being alone. And everyone lived in a separate hermitage. Eventually by the, you know, because we kept building more and more heritages. And so eventually our way of life was, was a, it's a I want to say it is because I'm still living it.

00:27:03:03 - 00:27:31:17

Tessa Bielecki

And this is what fascinates me. So we lived in, we start in Arizona, we outgrow that. We add a place in the woods of Nova Scotia, you know, 30 miles down a dirt road away from anything on a very beautiful lake. we have to we end up having to leave Sedona, Arizona, because it gets discovered by California, gets all built up.

00:27:31:17 - 00:28:11:08

Tessa Bielecki

We lose the silence and the solitude. We move to Colorado, then we're in the mountains. And then, a bishop invites us to come to Ireland. It's the first time this ever happened because we were always kind of marginal. and had, you know, love, hate relationship with bishops. But this bishop in Ireland, invited us to come, let me come back to that, because I don't want to get distracted from the, the way of life.

00:28:11:11 - 00:28:46:02

Tessa Bielecki

And it was probably. Let me see. It was about ten years in, after lots of experimentation with, a way of life. I'm not going to call it a rule yet. It's a way of life, trial and error. It ended up becoming this beautiful balance of about 50% of our time in solitude, 50% in community. There were times for prayer, times for manual labor.

00:28:46:05 - 00:29:13:13

Tessa Bielecki

Emphasis on celebration and play. This is was one of our radical contributions. You do not see this in the Rule of Saint Benedict. You don't, do you do not see this. Well, Saint Theresa was big on recreation, but historically celebration and play that was part of the night life denying. No, we don't do that. Yeah. How could you not do it?

00:29:13:15 - 00:29:54:07

Tessa Bielecki

You know Jesus is risen from the dead. I mean, why aren't we singing and dancing all over the place all the time? so celebration and play were very, very important. We were. We published a magazine, we wrote music, we wrote poetry, we put on skits, we wrote plays, we was tremendously creative, encouraging, you know, individual talents, big emphasis on, you know, nature being outside, doing things, out in the wilds.

00:29:54:07 - 00:30:25:26

Tessa Bielecki

And of course, it varied from place to place. Nova Scotia was particularly wonderful because we lived on a lake. We swam and canoed in the summer. We ice skated and cross-country skiing in the winter. was was very, very hard work. Very, very hard work. Our bodies today, bear the scars of that. And also very joyous, very joyous.

00:30:25:28 - 00:31:02:00

Tessa Bielecki

And it was the we always believed that, community is really enhanced by solitude, that if you're together all the time, you can really bog down and go very stale. And the solitude by, by separating. Then when you come back together, you really have something to offer. So I'm fascinated that I, I leave, a wilderness hermitage, which I did in 2007.

00:31:02:00 - 00:31:36:11

Tessa Bielecki

Teen as I'm aging. Partly I felt the need to be closer to health care. Also, I got tired of the hard work till I was 75. I was hauling logs and stacking wood and, I finally I said, you know what? I think I'd like some culture. And that was between needing health care and wanting culture more, more culture.

00:31:36:11 - 00:32:05:00

Tessa Bielecki

I, I decided to come back to Arizona, but to the city. So I live in an apartment, but it is clearly an urban hermitage. I have been fascinated that I am not living very differently, except for there are there are challenges and the the biggest one is noise. I wouldn't even say it's a challenge so much as it's just a tremendous sorrow to me.

00:32:05:00 - 00:32:06:21

Tessa Bielecki

How much noise there?

00:32:06:24 - 00:32:10:22

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, I was going to say what other kinds of differences or do you see?

00:32:10:24 - 00:32:44:02

Tessa Bielecki

I see just the the two differences really are noise and light pollution, because I lived so much in the, in wilderness areas, there was no light pollution. so like I, I miss stars. I certain times of the year the stars are clear, but not like they were, in Colorado, where the Milky Way was just splashed across the night sky every night.

00:32:44:02 - 00:33:15:13

Tessa Bielecki

And and it's hard to find a place to see the full moon rise unimpeded. Because the rising of the full moon was always, a ritual for me. and in most of the places where I lived, it was easy to see. I have to go somewhere to see it most of the year. And then it's not quiet where I.

00:33:15:17 - 00:33:49:01

Tessa Bielecki

Where I can see it isn't quiet. I hear traffic, or I see lights. So. And I'm actually. I've been here now for five years. I'm actually feeling a cumulative negative effect of, noise and, not being in the dark. I, I'm not sure how to describe that. It it's it's definitely sorrow.

00:33:49:04 - 00:33:49:24

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:33:50:10 - 00:34:30:20

Tessa Bielecki

there's even I would say a kind of a weariness. Yes. That comes with it. And I'm, I'm of course, I've had to come to terms with, you know, I've gotten a little snarly, About how rude people are about making noise. For example, recently someone has just moved into this a carp apartment complex, and he got himself a garage just a few doors down from me, and he put in a set of drums.

00:34:30:22 - 00:35:11:04

Tessa Bielecki

He's an old guy. Probably living his dream, but he put in a set of drums. He opens the garage doors and he thinks nothing of sitting there playing his drums loud as can be. He doesn't even think, what he's doing to other people all around him. Sure. So. And I get snarly, believe me. Okay, I have had to come to terms with, you know, that part of myself, where I lose patience, I get angry, I, raise my voice.

00:35:12:10 - 00:35:52:10

Tessa Bielecki

I'll complain to anybody who who who comes gladly comes to. So, those those are, Those are the the negatives. Those are the hard things. but I find, you know, prayer, the solitude, the study, the discipline of writing as a spiritual practice, the the the exercise, the rhythms. Staying in tune with the rhythm, staying in tune with the both the rhythms of the natural seasons and the liturgical rhythms.

00:35:52:10 - 00:36:36:13

Tessa Bielecki

Very, very, very important. And you walk into my apartment, you know, if it's lent, you know, if it's advent, you know, if it's Christmas. so, it apart from these negative elements, I, I, I feel like I'm, I'm living the way I always did. And, and what's thrilling about that to me is I feel like because what we used to do is people would come on retreat, and our emphasis was, what can you learn from this experience that you can take home and you can live in your own life wherever you live, however you live it?

00:36:36:16 - 00:36:37:23

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:36:37:25 - 00:37:04:25

Tessa Bielecki

Well, now I'm doing I have to do that same thing. And, and so I'm but I'm seeing it from the other side and I'm valuing that and realizing, wow, you know, we, we did come up with these basic elements, and but it, it takes creativity, to figure out how are you going to do it in the circumstances of your life, but it's all possible.

00:37:04:27 - 00:37:25:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I was going to say that was my next question was for those who are listening, you know, most people probably live in a city or suburb or, you know, someplace where there is noise and light and just kind of all the commotion of modern life. And I'm curious what kinds of things you'd recommend to them to try to find that, that solitude, the silence, the stillness.

00:37:26:09 - 00:37:35:16

Kelly Deutsch

some of those things that are such treasures in the monastic tradition, but that we, most of us aren't living a monastic life. Like, how do we find some of that?

00:37:35:19 - 00:38:10:17

Tessa Bielecki

Yes, of course I'm privileged because I'm celibate and I live alone, so I don't have a spouse. I don't have children. I love it that way. it's it's a vocation, and it's a joy. I think people have to, get up early in the morning. or stay up late at night. you've got you've got to find when is.

00:38:10:17 - 00:38:41:28

Tessa Bielecki

It's like. And so I have to do that here. See, I get up most people here I, I'm up and it varies with the season because my, my body tends to respond to the light. Well. And also here we're like we've just been through last week we had 110 degree temperatures. So you have to get up at four 4:00 in the morning.

00:38:41:28 - 00:39:09:29

Tessa Bielecki

You have to be out the door five 530 if you're going to get in a walk because you can't walk otherwise. Yeah. And my body, my body adjusts to that and, and I will wake up naturally in the winter. I will sleep till 7 or 730. so if you if you really key into the season and the light and the temperature.

00:39:10:01 - 00:39:32:02

Tessa Bielecki

Well, I have found that works. I don't, I don't I no longer set an alarm. I'm old enough now. I don't I don't have to do that. That's a luxury that comes with, with, age. I don't set an alarm to get up. I don't set an alarm. I and so I used to get up. well, we're just talking about finding that space.

00:39:32:07 - 00:40:02:24

Tessa Bielecki

So I think early morning, late at night, getting up in the middle of the night. there's always traffic. Because I live, there's an interstate a bit of ways, but it's not quite as loud in the middle of the night. certainly neighbors aren't up. except I do have one neighbor.

00:40:02:26 - 00:40:12:24

Tessa Bielecki

My closest neighbor, an old widow. And, she gambles a lot. She's, she she could be coming in at 3:00 in the morning.

00:40:14:10 - 00:40:46:09

Tessa Bielecki

these are. But, you know, I've incorporated that. Oh, there she is. You know, and offering prayers for her. For her husband just died last December, so she's still grieving. And so, you know, I. I can bring that in. So that would be about how to find space or you have to just get away. So so I there are I can go way out into the desert here which I will do a few times a week where it's really silent.

00:40:47:19 - 00:41:17:14

Tessa Bielecki

where I'm not hearing any traffic. And if I'm lucky, I'm not hearing any people. I was out Sunday. Not a soul. And utter silence. Wow. So, And you have defined. What is it that. What do you need? what do you need? And then you just learn how I think, you can learn how to block it out.

00:41:17:16 - 00:41:41:04

Tessa Bielecki

I also, I prefer silence. I don't listen to music the way I used to. However, I had to revive it here as white noise. so, like, when that drummer, if he gets going, for one thing. So then I can't be out on my balcony.

00:41:42:09 - 00:42:08:23

Tessa Bielecki

I have to come inside, and I often have to just turn on music to drown it out. And so I use that, And and, of course, it's those times that we are the times that are also our prayer times. So, but we have to find what what is it for us? I think all of this is trial and error.

00:42:08:25 - 00:42:37:11

Tessa Bielecki

I don't think any one thing works. for everybody. I don't, I, I, I, I think there is just these basic rhythms and, people have to find their own way within them, I think, not everybody can live out in nature. No, I am lucky. Tucson is a very wild city. There's, like, I can look out and I'm seeing mountains.

00:42:37:14 - 00:43:03:24

Tessa Bielecki

I can see a few saguaros in the distance, which is why I'm in this apartment. I got to see saguaros. But you can grow house plants. you can grow things on your patio. I think growing things is essential. Is is an essential part of contemplative life. However, simply you do it. But I think it's essential you can learn so much from a plant.

00:43:03:27 - 00:43:07:18

Tessa Bielecki

I have.

00:43:07:21 - 00:43:37:00

Tessa Bielecki

A habit of not get too carried away by my plants but my plants are extremely special. I have actually had, I only have three because I don't have a lot of light in this apartment. That's another thing I miss. but my plants are 30 years old. and they all, they they are friends. They all have stories.

00:43:37:02 - 00:44:06:04

Tessa Bielecki

They connect me to people and places. One huge plant comes from one leaf that I picked off a roof, a rooftop in Jerusalem 30 years ago. so we learn plants or teachers, like, big nature out there is a teacher, but so, so are simple, simple touches of nature.

00:44:06:11 - 00:44:07:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:44:07:26 - 00:44:43:18

Tessa Bielecki

I think it's very important to be immersed in real things. It's very important to cook food. food is many things. food is health. Food is, it's a sacred ritual. Food is art. so, to me, food is very important. Lots of people will say to me, well, I don't cook. you know, it's just myself.

00:44:43:18 - 00:44:57:14

Tessa Bielecki

And I say, well, it's just myself and I cook, because it's all these things. it's it's a major art form for me. and it's sacred.

00:44:57:24 - 00:45:36:18

Kelly Deutsch

yes. So sounds like a lot of these things are also just a matter of being embodied, you know, absolutely. Getting your hands in dirt or cooking or, you know, in the flour or or just listening and being aware of, like you said, what your body needs, like, okay, so my nervous system is really overwhelmed by, you know, the drummer or the traffic or, you know, like, what do I need to do to tend to that need that I'm sensing within myself and to be aware of those, those inklings and locutions, the desires and the drawings, like whatever you're feeling internally to be aware of that and really attend to that as, as kind

00:45:36:18 - 00:45:39:07

Kelly Deutsch

of your, your mother superior, if you will.

00:45:39:09 - 00:46:13:19

Tessa Bielecki

Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I walk, at least six days a week for an hour. I try to swim every day. I am very fortunate. that's another loss of, no longer living in the wilderness. There is a luscious pool here, and I'm a big swimmer swimming is a very important part of my life. I, both walking and swimming.

00:46:13:19 - 00:46:39:27

Tessa Bielecki

I'm doing the Jesus Prayer, as do it, one of the most important penances I was ever given after confession. As a as a, young person in Nova Scotia, Father William said, okay, now when you do your your floor exercises, you do them to the Jesus Prayer. I started doing that sometime in the late 70s. I have been doing it ever since.

00:46:41:10 - 00:47:08:07

Tessa Bielecki

and that is a it's a very important part of my life. So I go swimming. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing these strokes. The Jesus prayer is going on. My body is moving. My body is stretching. My mind is emptying because it's just the Jesus prayer. And I usually just because of some back problems, I can only do the backstroke.

00:47:08:10 - 00:47:35:26

Tessa Bielecki

So I'm spending most of my time looking at the sky, looking at clouds. That's lovely. And saying the Jesus prayer and and now, now see if I get all riled up about noise or whatever. What's going on in the world? I'll go for a swim. And so it's, it's, an embodied way to to calm down. Being in the body is is just so important.

00:47:35:29 - 00:47:45:12

Kelly Deutsch

It really is. And that rhythmic I, I love that I mean, whether it's swimming or you mentioned before, like that combination of labor and prayer, the aura.

00:47:45:12 - 00:47:46:12

Tessa Bielecki

Looking,

00:47:46:15 - 00:48:05:21

Kelly Deutsch

Like there's something so helpful, like, I have to do that as well. Like I to be able, especially when I spend so much time in my interior world or with other people in their interior world, I have to do something with my hands where I can just let my mind be free. Whether it's painting or yard work or whatever.

00:48:05:21 - 00:48:11:24

Kelly Deutsch

It is something that's more embodied and is less heart and head focused.

00:48:11:27 - 00:48:46:10

Tessa Bielecki

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I see and I think Jesus, that's part of the witness of the gospel, too. I mean, Jesus was walking everywhere. for one thing, and camping out and, So, yeah, the monastery and again, I think that's, that's, that's a big part of what women bring to all of this. I think that's also what has what happened to Christianity.

00:48:46:10 - 00:49:13:27

Tessa Bielecki

It became too masculine. It became too removed from from women specifically and from the feminine. And so it became disembodied to rational, and to negative, you know, women nurture, women bring life. men killed,

00:49:14:00 - 00:49:24:13

Kelly Deutsch

So so we just have like a handful of minutes left, and I'm. I'd love to hear I know you're going to be speaking and sharing a class on, Teresa of Avila. Yes.

00:49:24:16 - 00:49:25:21

Tessa Bielecki

I haven't.

00:49:25:24 - 00:50:02:11

Kelly Deutsch

As we've spent these past several months in this women mystics school and learning, just as you've been sharing here about the gifts that women bring, this feminine spirit that's creative and life giving and embodied. I'm curious what what you would name as Teresa of Avila is particular genius, because I think a lot of us have heard of her, but sometimes she remains a little out of reach because her interior castle and all her writing seem either, you know, long in the distant past where the language doesn't make sense to us, or maybe it feels too advanced spiritually.

00:50:02:11 - 00:50:19:02

Kelly Deutsch

And so somehow, this woman who was so fiercely alive, I think, gets lost and, you know, kind of gets sent as a marble statue in an alcove somewhere instead of being fiercely alive. So what kind of feminine gifts or genius does Teresa bring us?

00:50:19:06 - 00:50:49:22

Tessa Bielecki

Okay. And I, Of course. I'm. I'm so excited to talk about her. Teresa is really my best friend. I feel closer to her than I do, really to to to any woman I've ever met. and I not everybody has the same take on her that I do. the reason I love her is her vitality. but you have to.

00:50:49:24 - 00:51:17:01

Tessa Bielecki

I don't think she's easy to read. And when I do my class, I actually want to talk about the three books I've written about her and why I wrote them, and what each one has to offer that makes Teresa accessible to people. Because you can't just pick up Teresa of Avila, you don't get a big enough picture. And I read every word she ever wrote.

00:51:17:20 - 00:51:45:03

Tessa Bielecki

and because I'm this, well, I'm a J on the Myers-Briggs and I. And I'm. I think I'm a one on the Enneagram, and I love structure, and I love organizing, and I love synthesizing. I read every word and I re categorized it, on my terms and then, put it all out in a in a new form.

00:51:45:19 - 00:52:11:27

Tessa Bielecki

and the my big emphasis is on her vitality. First of all, she also she, she's a tremendous teacher, but she's so. And this is part of what I both I love about her. She gets so excited. She's all over the place. And when you read her, you she will even she even digresses and goes off on something else.

00:52:12:00 - 00:52:35:02

Tessa Bielecki

And then she ends up writing, oh, now where was I? And then she comes back. But it's like five chapters later to where she was. So she's hard to read. I remember the first time I read her, my big line was, wow, does she need an editor? And but the fact that she's so unedited is why I love her.

00:52:35:12 - 00:53:01:12

Tessa Bielecki

and so, like in her autobiography, she's unedited. And I think it's so well worth if you read The Interior Castle by then, she's really got it together. And she sent the thought synthesized, synthesized it into this beautiful treatise. But yeah. And that, yes, it's beautiful, but I love kind of the wild unleashed, woman that you read in, in in her life.

00:53:02:07 - 00:53:28:29

Tessa Bielecki

so what I love is the vitality. But she's a tremendous teacher about prayer. And when I do, the class will. Will zeroed in on just one particular, well, one aspect. But the then that I guess the third thing I want to say related to the prayer is she's what we call a bridal mystic or a spousal mystic.

00:53:29:02 - 00:54:09:13

Tessa Bielecki

So she adds this remarkable dimension to prayer, which is, God is not. And I'm going to use God language with, you know, some apologies and caveats, but I, I that's my language. So God can be sure. God. Lord. brother. But see, for Teresa, there is, a quantum leap in intimacy and God is spouse. Now, that's the heart of my kind of prayer.

00:54:10:28 - 00:54:43:03

Tessa Bielecki

and she's masterful in this. She not only embodies it, but she talks about what it is. It's kind of off the charts for some people. embarrassing for some people, very, very juicy, very passionate language. She talks about. She talks about madness going mad with love. And it's, That's me. I love it, and that's why I.

00:54:43:03 - 00:55:12:01

Tessa Bielecki

That's why I love her. Like, I, I read her and I felt like I was I recognized I recognize myself, and that's partly why I fell in love with her was like, oh my gosh. and again, she also gave me a language. so I think she's the greatest. yes, I think she's the greatest. And I'm happy to be able to do this because I haven't, you know, I haven't talked about her in a while.

00:55:12:03 - 00:55:43:21

Tessa Bielecki

And, then I start to think about her again, and, and I just get all excited about her all over again because she's just dynamite, and she's definitely, you know, a woman for our times. I mean, she was very powerful woman at, the least likely done, I mean, the king of Spain knew her name, and and here she's this little nun.

00:55:44:05 - 00:55:46:22

Tessa Bielecki

so she she was something.

00:55:46:24 - 00:55:51:23

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. I have so enjoyed being able to.

00:55:51:26 - 00:55:52:06

Tessa Bielecki

Just.

00:55:52:06 - 00:56:02:12

Kelly Deutsch

Really dive into each of these female mystics as we've been going along. Yeah. You know, I mean, like, last month, we were doing the big genes and I was like, oh my gosh, they're just so fucking amazing, you know?

00:56:02:19 - 00:56:05:15

Tessa Bielecki

Yes, yes. Talk about passion. Yes.

00:56:05:15 - 00:56:34:19

Kelly Deutsch

Oh my gosh. You know, we had Julian of Norwich and we had Dorothy Day and I mean just over Eddie Hillis. oh my God. Just each one is as I'm preparing for them, I'm writing about them. I'm sitting with their writings just seeing the the vitality, like you say, the the audacity with which they spoke so many times, you know, and it was just such a intensely patriarchal society that they lived down and they just had this like, I mean, my goodness, that hurts.

00:56:34:20 - 00:56:37:07

Kelly Deutsch

But, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:37:09 - 00:56:47:05

Tessa Bielecki

Absolutely. Yeah. You chose some beauties. I mean, the, the, you know, congratulations again on that women's mystic school and the and your choices are are terrific.

00:56:47:12 - 00:57:13:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Thank you I'm very excited. And I'm so looking forward to hearing more about Teresa because she's such a, she's so good. And as you say, she can be very accessible. But I think a lot of people miss that. So, yeah, I love the way that you embody her vitality, and there's so many parallels between your life and hers as being, yes, boundaries and just so many pieces.

00:57:13:21 - 00:57:14:06

Tessa Bielecki

yeah.

00:57:14:08 - 00:57:14:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:57:15:01 - 00:57:32:22

Tessa Bielecki

She she helped me a lot with that too, because I didn't. Yeah. Because, you know, they used to call a la madre fund a door, you know, the mother founder house. And that really helped me because I was doing that, too, but I, I didn't until I got to know her. I didn't have a model for that.

00:57:34:15 - 00:57:42:05

Tessa Bielecki

and she really helped, including how hard it was, how overwhelmed you could feel. She was always overwhelmed.

00:57:42:09 - 00:57:43:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:57:43:11 - 00:58:10:10

Tessa Bielecki

Just partly why I loved her, to just. She was just always overwhelmed. And she didn't, she on the one hand, she had a lot of help and a lot of support, and on the other hand, she didn't. So she was often very alone, and and she suffered a lot, from loneliness. And that's partly what's so endearing about it's not just the vitality, it's all the human emotion.

00:58:10:10 - 00:58:31:19

Tessa Bielecki

She was often frightened and scared and depressed and lonely and, And she says all that? Yes. she says all that and more so in her letters than the formal writings, which is why it's just so great to read letters. But most people don't do that.

00:58:31:22 - 00:58:47:14

Kelly Deutsch

Right. But I yeah, I think you're right that those human emotions make make the mystics make Teresa so much more relatable. Yeah. That she's not this, like marble statue somewhere. Like she wasn't living, breathing and truly hot blooded Spaniard.

00:58:47:14 - 00:58:48:21

Tessa Bielecki

Oh, yeah. You know.

00:58:49:04 - 00:58:56:18

Kelly Deutsch

had a lot of, passion and struggles and things that that anyone can relate to.

00:58:56:21 - 00:58:57:14

Tessa Bielecki

Yeah.

00:58:57:17 - 00:58:57:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:58:58:06 - 00:59:00:04

Tessa Bielecki

So we'll have fun with Teresa.

00:59:00:07 - 00:59:11:06

Kelly Deutsch

I guess I'm very much looking forward to it. if people want to learn more about your books, about your desert foundation and everything that you're up to, where should people go?

00:59:11:09 - 00:59:35:17

Tessa Bielecki

Oh, okay. yeah. We didn't even talk about Desert Foundation, but, I have, with my friend, father Dave Denney started something when I left monastic life. We started something called the Desert Foundation. Our website is sand and sky.org. Breathe. Easy to remember because what do you see when you look out in the desert sand and sky?

00:59:35:19 - 01:00:03:09

Tessa Bielecki

Dot org we're redesigning the website. We don't. It's very boxy. Right now. We have something spectacularly beautiful, and artistic, in the works at this moment. And, so pay attention. don't give up. But you'll and I eventually. I'm trying to do my own. I don't have my own website, but eventually there will be testable. Okay.

01:00:03:19 - 01:00:08:11

Tessa Bielecki

so. But I hope by the end of the year. But I can't be sure.

01:00:08:13 - 01:00:11:27

Kelly Deutsch

And can people learn about your books on Theresa and what? That website?

01:00:12:03 - 01:00:16:03

Tessa Bielecki

Yes, absolutely. All the terms, all the Teresa books are there. Yeah.

01:00:16:03 - 01:00:16:17

Kelly Deutsch

Okay.

01:00:16:17 - 01:00:20:10

Tessa Bielecki

And. Well and and listen to the women mystics and we'll talk more about that.

01:00:20:17 - 01:00:41:22

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Yes. If you want to join us for the class on Teresa, just check us out at Women mystics.org, and we would love to have you join us for the journey that we have coming up. Well, Tessa, this has been delightful. I'm looking forward to having your conference father, Dave, also on here to talk some about the Desert Foundation, because there are so many things that I wanted to talk about.

01:00:41:22 - 01:00:43:23

Kelly Deutsch

And yeah, so much time.

01:00:43:25 - 01:00:45:03

Tessa Bielecki

Life is rich.

01:00:45:06 - 01:01:05:01

Kelly Deutsch

Indeed. It is. I am so thankful to hear about your story and your life as a hermit, as a contemplative, how we can also live some of this contemplative and even monastic quality in our daily life and, find some of this aliveness that that you embody so well. So thank you for sharing that with us today.

01:01:05:03 - 01:01:06:11

Tessa Bielecki

Thank you Kelly.

01:01:06:13 - 01:01:09:23

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you everyone for listening.