Do you crave depth? Community? UNION?? Join us at the Modern Mystics School!
PLAY: the Secret to Letting Go
with Interplay co-founder Cynthia Winton-Henry
What do dancing and playing have to do with theology?
Join us for a rich, embodied conversation with our very special guest today, Cynthia Winton-Henry. Cynthia is the co-founder of Interplay, a worldwide “movement” movement - a community of practice that uses dance and play and spontaneity to unlock the wisdom of the body.
Tune in to learn:
🔹 Why *ease* is essential for both the body and the spirit
🔸 The exact techniques she uses to detach from heavy group/cultural dynamics (so important for all us HSP/empaths out there!)
🔹 Why sensitive folks (HSPs/empaths) need “credentialing”–and why it has nothing to do with degrees or letters after your name
🔸 The forgotten practice of the ancestors that helps you regulate your nervous system.
🔹 The key to unlocking our tendency to control
🔸 Why you need a spirit team–and where to find them
🔹 Why play is the secret sauce for everything
–Plus 2 embodied exercises you can do with us live!
Cynthia Winton-Henry is a dancer, celebrated teacher, artist, and life-long mentor in somatic spirituality. Her books include Chasing the Dance of Life, Dance: The Sacred Art: Discovering the Joy of Movement, Move: What the Body Wants, and the soon to be published The Art of Ensoulment, which accompanied her popular year-long course by the same name.
Cynthia curates a community (complete with creative arts/spirituality courses!) at the Hidden Monastery (found at https://cynthiawinton-henry.com), and writes on Substack (https://substack.com/@cynthiawintonhenry).
Her book, The Art of Ensoulment, a creative workbook/art journal/*experience* is out August 1, 2023.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:17
Kelly Deutsch
Hello everyone and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust Podcast. I am your host, Kelly Deutsch, and today I am excited to have a conversation about the intersection of movement and spirituality. We're talking dance, ritual, creative practices, even playfulness. And joining me to explore these themes is Cynthia Winton Henry, the co-founder of interplay. And for those of you who may be new to the embodiment world, interplay is an international movement.
00:00:29:17 - 00:00:53:04
Kelly Deutsch
Movement. It's it incorporates all of these elements of dance and play and spontaneity. And there are hundreds of interplay groups across the world and online, and has been named one of the top ten movement modalities. And I know some of our other guests have been trained in it, too. Even Cynthia herself is a dancer, a celebrated teacher, artist, and a lifelong mentor in somatic spirituality.
00:00:53:06 - 00:01:11:21
Kelly Deutsch
Her books include Chasing the Dance of Life, Dance the Sacred Art, discovering the Joy of movement, Move What the Body Wants, and the soon to be publish Art of installment, which accompanies her popular year long course by the same name. And I am thrilled to have her with us here today. Welcome, Cynthia.
00:01:11:23 - 00:01:14:07
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Thank you. Kelly, it's so great to be with you.
00:01:14:10 - 00:01:34:02
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. I wanted to start out today just by asking. I've heard you say and write also in your writings, that your greatest longing in life is to foster freedom in yourself and in others. And I'm curious how that desire has shown up in your life and in particular in your spirituality.
00:01:34:05 - 00:02:30:15
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Well, thanks for that leading question. It certainly is one of the most challenging things and the easiest thing for me, so complex. and you know, as a dancer and as an improviser, a lover of improvization, gifted even in that area, able to kind of create and compose in the moment like a jazz performer, the bring that and discovering the freedom of that in myself and ensemble and then cultivating that that beautiful, natural, organic, not only creativity but craft make you know that we are we can be artists really at any level of ability and feeling that and then even, you know, I'm a as a co-founder, I recently stepped down from
00:02:30:15 - 00:02:55:28
Cynthia Winton-Henry
my interplay post, after 30 years and handed that over. And so, you know, I've had lots of chances to be led by others in this, this particular practice and the freedom of that, you know, the freedom of not being the one behind the wheel and, so there's just so much of from the, from the ease inside for me, for many people, this is scary, scary stuff.
00:02:56:01 - 00:03:31:10
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And interplay was designed to help people go down into the shallow end and take little bits of practice and then see what comes out of it. And many people discover that delicious sync, spontaneous synchronicity of life and tears flow from that. And I love that. On the other hand, you know, just briefly, we're in a time where freedom is, a great quest, a question and quite difficulty, quite difficult.
00:03:31:13 - 00:04:31:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
as a white woman, as a woman whose DNA and community of practice was grown straight out of the Protestant lineage, you know, the quest for freedom in American religions, but then the oppression. Colonization. And what's my role in that? the struggle for the dignity of rights of all people. what we're learning about neuro diversities and all of that, you know, is the kind of the big quest for of in my own life to see how to keep opening myself up to deeper awareness about how I might be imposing, be stepping over in, you know, in my body and soul into, areas that are really painful for
00:04:31:23 - 00:05:00:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
people. You know, it's not just lacking sensitivity. It's really about growing, growing a deep connection to the truth of suffering and dancing with that, you know, in a way. so, yeah, it's a big question. And it's my life. My life purpose is to foster freedom. and, purpose for me isn't the thing I'm good at. It's the thing that I need to learn.
00:05:01:24 - 00:05:03:25
Kelly Deutsch
I think that's an important point.
00:05:04:24 - 00:05:30:00
Kelly Deutsch
The thing we need to learn. Yeah. And I think that's an important, important point as well of of bringing up the, the marginalized and the ways that we unconscious. So we may, impose or oppress or slight or just crowd out other people because, I mean, I think that's kind of the difference, right, between being racially sensitive and anti-racist.
00:05:30:00 - 00:05:56:02
Kelly Deutsch
You know, it's it's one thing to be like, aware that racism exists and all of that, but it's a whole nother thing to be active in trying to dismantle systems of oppression and how those things have existed for. And I also I wanted to talk a little bit about, the ease that comes up in interplay. But first, before we get into that, can you just share for those who are completely unfamiliar with it, how would you describe interplay?
00:05:56:04 - 00:05:59:00
Kelly Deutsch
and I'd also love to hear a little bit about how it was founded.
00:05:59:03 - 00:06:41:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Okay. well, interplay is an active, creative approach to unlocking the wisdom of the body. So it's a practice that welcomes all of us. and really, all of us is the physicality of all of us are all of our pieces are thinking as a as part of our movement, our heart, our our physicality. And particularly, as interplay developed in started with filling me as dancer, but also people who are thinking a lot about body and soul.
00:06:41:08 - 00:07:13:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And we were actually part of a three person dance company, a body dance company. And we were we were creating choreographies that invoked both the narrative out of, out of our traditions and, and the, you know, the moving experience of it. And, as interplay started to evolve after Body and soul and, and we were improvising from movement at a time when people weren't doing that.
00:07:13:02 - 00:07:45:12
Cynthia Winton-Henry
so 19, you know, 1980s and then we discovered that not only did our bodies want to move, that the movement was carrying us into storytelling and into, like, how to open up our words as part of the dance, how to open up our, our truths, how to open up our voices in our singing. And we were very lucky right at the beginning to have these magical musicians, and particularly on my, our cassette, who just can play a million things.
00:07:45:18 - 00:08:17:17
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And it's a fabulous improviser. So we've always had music, in musicianship or stories, stillness. And of course, the underlying, you know, whole making, movement. I mean, that's what movement does it, it captures everything. And I have to say this right here, that the play part is kind of surprising. I, you know, I'm a very playful person, but I like, have to cultivate.
00:08:17:19 - 00:08:48:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I have to remember it live in a very serious world. I've been trained as I was trained as an academic, you know, to think about things. And I have plenty in my life to worry me. So the playful part, surprising to me, becomes actually part of the genius of creation, that things aren't trying to get somewhere on purpose, that things are actually alive in this, organic, often irreverent way.
00:08:49:25 - 00:09:16:03
Kelly Deutsch
You know, I love to. Yeah, I want to hear more about that. so play is something that is very, interesting to me because I think we all, most of us, at least those who are listening here, probably recognize that it's something important in theory, but actually doing it in practice is a little bit harder. But I know you said that one of the mottos of interplay is like, what if life didn't have to be so hard?
00:09:16:03 - 00:09:30:15
Kelly Deutsch
You know, like, what if we could do things with ease instead of something being forced? And I was wondering if you could start there for us? Like, why is is so important both for the body and for the spirit?
00:09:30:18 - 00:10:00:17
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Force. I love that you use the word force instead of force. Let's think about that for a moment. the forcing, the sort of over anticipation right there. When we start to anticipate, we are not really creating within the body. so and then when we, you know, a lot of us recognize that we're managing, issues of control or over extending ourselves.
00:10:00:23 - 00:10:27:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And when it, whenever we've over overextend, it's like we are reaching out beyond our body and looking at external factors. And, we often talk about, oh, well, then we're not really trusting ourselves. Right? So the the dance of forcing, you know, I mean, there's a place for push and for drive and for exertion and discomfort even in all of that.
00:10:27:00 - 00:11:14:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So I'm not saying we shouldn't ever do that, but interplay is probably one of those places that can call us back to the genius of of what's the opposite of force, you might call it, is you might call it, you know, the terrifying, organic truth of just being, right. I mean, is that is, I don't know, I think, you know, in, in our marketing and, and awareness for those of us who step in and have make choices about coming back into our body in a creative way, not just coming back to the body, but coming back in a creative way, which is more where play lives.
00:11:14:26 - 00:11:45:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
and, you know, the, the, the sympathetic and, you know, these nervous systems, like, there's a whole golden side to our, our physicality that just wants to do that. Nobody has to say to us, go, you know, go back to play. When we're playing, you know, you have to tell people to go back to work. But not so like, you know, if you've been in a workshop and everybody's mulling around and they're talking and there's all this ease and conversation and somebody is digging on the bell, come back, come back, the important stuff is about to happen.
00:11:45:24 - 00:12:18:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah, that's right. But that dance, like the word conversation means to dance with so that's play, right? When we're not thinking about, what am I supposed to be doing? Where is this supposed to be going? And it's it is actually at the center, according to spiritual teaching, it's at the center. divine connection. Lila, you know, the play of God, the play of life.
00:12:18:10 - 00:12:51:03
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And so instead of, like, our in our, you know, and I this is where I come from, right? My ancestors are part of this lineage of the literally the first people off the boat of the Puritan work ethic. And they were actually part of the group of people among the Puritans, the Anne Hutchinson part of that community that was exiled from Boston and sent to Rhode Island as a whole group had their guns taken away for their belief in actually living from grace.
00:12:51:05 - 00:13:08:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
or the grace, this graciousness of this connection, this person and and that if we honor that in each person, in body and soul that dignify that the world organizes so differently, split it into play and work.
00:13:08:11 - 00:13:29:09
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. It's funny, even just as you're talking, I can, like, feel my body going in like my stomach and clenching and like, because there's such a different somatic experience of of that work versus play, right? I mean, and you mentioned the nervous system. I mean, it is the difference between sympathetic and parasympathetic. You know, when we're in fight flight, freeze.
00:13:29:12 - 00:13:48:26
Kelly Deutsch
but, I think a lot of us think of like fight flight, like, oh my gosh, I'm anxious or I'm scared, but it's like, it's really just any time there is that kind of forcefulness control. I mean, you need sympathetic even just to, you know, go for a jog or to, you know, be active and thinking and all of those things, but with play with that parasympathetic like rest and digest.
00:13:48:26 - 00:13:51:22
Kelly Deutsch
There's such a,
00:13:51:25 - 00:13:52:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
it.
00:13:52:00 - 00:14:16:26
Kelly Deutsch
Just opens up whole new possibilities for connection and creativity, relationships. And it's much more what you think of as right brains. Right? All of the creative expressions. and it's one thing that I'm curious about is so a lot of us get stuck in the sympathetic, right? We get stuck in fight or flight because life is just so full.
00:14:16:26 - 00:14:40:06
Kelly Deutsch
There's so much stimulus everywhere. There go, go, go. Whether it's, you know, just kind of culture as it is. Or maybe you have young kids or just the fullness of life and normal everyday stressors. So I'm curious how you or in interplay, you help people who are stuck in maybe a trauma state, maybe in a stress state, or kind of in that sympathetic, buzzy energy.
00:14:40:08 - 00:14:49:09
Kelly Deutsch
How do you help their bodies feel safe enough to drop into that play? Easeful state.
00:14:49:12 - 00:15:18:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Thank you that, you know, that's a again, such a good question. I mean, first of all, I think that we've noticed that when people can choose to come into the room, their own choice is the biggest safety king. Hector. Right. And we call that willingness or high willingness. And so we we, we, we talk about enter players as, you know, highly evolved because they have high willingness to step in.
00:15:18:10 - 00:15:48:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
who is creative state. that that's a courage. You know, that we usually comes from trauma. it usually comes from knowing overwhelm. It usually it might come from remembering that we're there's something really hungry in us for something more beautiful. And we can remember a time when we danced or when we were, really playful. Or perhaps we feel like we've never known.
00:15:48:14 - 00:16:24:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And we now know that that's the exact thing. And so when people do step into the room, the beautiful thing about interplay as a system, no matter who the teachers or the leaders are, is that we have cultivated a a system for helping people incrementally with these beautiful little chiropractic of, leadership to step in, one and they're usually, not about prefacing that this is about trauma or this is about recovering anything.
00:16:24:16 - 00:16:47:06
Cynthia Winton-Henry
It's not it's much more neutral. It's not really based in like, you're going to be we're going to be in a certain feeling about this. Do you know, it's not there might be a tone because of who the person is that leading is leading or how it's being led. but it's not like. And now we're going to look at our feelings and our thoughts.
00:16:47:08 - 00:17:11:12
Cynthia Winton-Henry
so instead it's, it's based it forms like an art practice. Like if you were to sit down as a, as a writer and you knew that you were going to do three minutes of writing, here's your piece of paper. The prompt is a word blue, and you just get to free write about blue. That's it's kind of an interplay style of, for movement, voice and storytelling.
00:17:11:14 - 00:17:32:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
One of our simplest ones. That's so great. And I'll just share it right now because you all can try it. it's based in this in, in the progression of storytelling practices. It's called I could talk about and this got have created by breaking things down more and more and more from big body stories where people are full out moving around, telling their story.
00:17:32:27 - 00:17:51:03
Cynthia Winton-Henry
finding and finding some joy and delight in that. These are, you know, that's where you you're happy to do it all the way back to let's just go back and forth and say things we could talk about from our morning. so maybe would you like to do this with me? And we'll just try. So, you don't say anything about it.
00:17:51:03 - 00:18:02:18
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You just say what you could talk about, okay? So, like, I could talk about, waking up and having my. Every Friday morning, the 9:00 phone call with my friend,
00:18:02:21 - 00:18:06:21
Kelly Deutsch
I could talk about snuggling with my cat.
00:18:06:23 - 00:18:15:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I could talk about being so happy that my partner made me some eggs with avocado.
00:18:15:29 - 00:18:21:25
Kelly Deutsch
I could talk about, starting my beans to boil so they're ready for lunch.
00:18:21:27 - 00:18:29:26
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I could talk about thinking about this podcast and also getting ready for another one, because I'm like on a little podcast adventure.
00:18:30:00 - 00:18:38:11
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, it's exciting. I could talk about all of the set up that it takes to get all of this ready.
00:18:38:13 - 00:18:57:20
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I could talk about, yeah, my cat. And, this is a new rescue cat who's rescuing us. I think she's come from the wild, and she's coming to make her home with us.
00:18:57:22 - 00:18:59:08
Kelly Deutsch
That's precious.
00:18:59:11 - 00:19:24:07
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So there you go. That's, You know, I could talk about. And out of these little kind of spontaneous, unbidden things, comes pieces of information that we could then, you know, we could go then on to do three sentence stories. Then we could open it up into, let's move between a little bit of story and a little bit of humming.
00:19:24:07 - 00:19:45:02
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So, you know, you know, or then and then coming back, you know, I mean, it could go any number of ways, but that's, for instance, a simple progression of playing. And even when people are more advanced, or practiced in interplay, they come back to we come back to these little things again and again, because the little forms are as delightful as the big forms.
00:19:47:09 - 00:20:13:22
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Thank you. I feel like that gives a good sense of just the kind of improvizational, spirit of it all. And if we have time at the end, I definitely want to make space for, you know, for maybe a movement practice or something that we can show and invite others into. but I love, I was reading a little bit of your book, the Art of installment, and there is one point in which you said, to dance with mystery.
00:20:13:22 - 00:20:47:23
Kelly Deutsch
You embrace the joyful incompetence and relationship, or in relation to materials, instincts and ideas, and you surrender your hunger for excellence and open the door to good enoughness. And once released from being good, I can enjoy the ride. And that's liberation. And I thought that was like a beautiful way to tie that back to your your heart's longing of freedom, to be able to have joyful incompetence, which is really hard for a lot of us who are just trained like it's just ingrained in us, especially in the West, from such a young, aged perform.
00:20:47:28 - 00:21:08:13
Kelly Deutsch
You have your, you know, everything is graded in school. And so that's just like the mindset, and, you know, performance reviews and all the things, instead of being able to just like kind of flow with life and see what unfolds, having having a deep seated acceptance of that good enoughness.
00:21:08:15 - 00:21:50:12
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah. And, you know, I really take seriously the social body. So the impact of being in a group body, even in my imagination. So like, imagine this group, right? And because of Mira neurons, my body receives data, kinesthetic audio, unlike receiving data from my group consciousness, my group body. And you know that that group is also holding performative excellence, you know, that agendas.
00:21:50:14 - 00:22:25:18
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And so when I go to think about my individual, process, I have to kind of unsnap a little bit from the group, from a body to body connection with my group. It's not just my mind, it's just not my personality problem. You know, it's actually of deep, you know, a deep and snapping, you know, like, okay, guys, you know, I know, but but that requires will, and it requires support.
00:22:25:20 - 00:22:52:14
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So like any of us who have little pods and many of us do now, you know, little pods of spiritual practice where we can be and are encouraged to come back to ourselves. But it's also kind of unsnap it, from group, the group body. So if we're a church person or in a synagogue or a dharma community is always very kind of like in a certain pious body.
00:22:52:16 - 00:23:23:15
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And I'm like trying to remember I could play with this. I don't have to be so focused, you know, it's like I actually have to disagree or I'm or, you know, the word currently is to decolonize. Yeah. Because, you know, the goal for us, I think, is especially now, we need to be in salt. So it's we need to be in that life giving energetic source, the me of me or the you of you and it's different than our personality.
00:23:23:17 - 00:24:01:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
It's, some say it isn't like even a personal thing. It's the the connected thing. But it's definitely got, powerful identity and dropping in, especially through the arts into soul. So that is how to unsnap because then you've got strength of connection at this deepest level or to decolonize. yeah. And that's all of us, we're, you know, in this time in history where we have the things that have evolved, are not working for everybody at all there, and they're back.
00:24:01:28 - 00:24:32:03
Cynthia Winton-Henry
They're dangerous, and they're dangerous to the people that created them. white, white lineage to, people, perhaps most dangerous. It is white privileged people who have the highest suicide rate right now. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's not good for us, this kind of this path. and so, yeah, like, coming back and coming into our body to play, you know, like opening up the question of like, what is play?
00:24:32:03 - 00:25:03:02
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Or the organic, creative life within us and everyone that's coming from this, the group, these group bodies. But being in little pods of supportive, you know, connection that's you know, I think I think that's what is happening in the world, more and more, it's a kind of a hidden thing, I think. But I think that's what is awakening and, interplay is one of the movements as part of that.
00:25:03:04 - 00:25:04:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
yeah. Yeah.
00:25:04:19 - 00:25:25:28
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, I think that's such a, key thing. I, I'm thinking of someone I was, speaking to in spiritual direction who is lives in the Silicon Valley, you know, and she's just like, it's just so, like, based on consumerism and how much like, the show and, like, there's just such a buzzy, frenetic energy in places like that.
00:25:26:01 - 00:25:44:24
Kelly Deutsch
And it is very easy to get swept up by all of that. Like you said, just our neurobiology or neuro neurons and things, how we we just pick that up from each other. And I know you consider yourself a highly sensitive person, which is something we've talked about on the podcast before, but and I know a lot of our listeners are HSP as well.
00:25:44:24 - 00:26:04:14
Kelly Deutsch
You know, just deeply sensitive to, not only stimulus around us, but like group dynamics, emotions, kind of energy in the room and, I wonder, so you've shared a little bit about how how you navigate that, especially with these little pods to kind of unsnap from all the.
00:26:04:14 - 00:26:05:07
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Of.
00:26:05:10 - 00:26:17:15
Kelly Deutsch
Wildness around us. But are there any other ways that dance and movement and embodiment, spontaneity, help you navigate the world? As someone who's particularly sensitive?
00:26:17:18 - 00:26:47:25
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Oh gosh. Oh, I don't know what I would do. And truly, without the without the, birthrights. The creative birth right. who are creative birth. Right. from the beginning were the way that we navigated more the, the complexities of, you know, internal and external connection, and danger, you know, the dreaming, the dreaming ways.
00:26:47:28 - 00:27:21:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
we're telling people like a lot the stars, the and completely somatic. Right. not about, much development in terms of left brain freeze and all of that. So the creative birth rights are the ways that the body, once they come into flow, especially in community. So movement and voice, chanting rhythms, silence, spaces of silence and listening less, far less words, profound stories.
00:27:21:00 - 00:28:01:21
Cynthia Winton-Henry
When these are online, the soul of the individual, the group syncs up and it it it is regulated. It is the regulating, it is regulation. So it's not like, oh, this is a cool, cool way. It is the way. And Angeles area. And many listeners will might remember that too, as an anthropologist started to learn in her studies that when, shamans found that people were not engaged in villages with movement, the movement, the voice, the stories or the stillness, the sense of just being able to be right.
00:28:01:22 - 00:28:24:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Not stillness as a thing, but, you know, and not movement as moving, right? Dancing, you know, but it's like the not showing up. And when any of these were missing, then it was considered soul loss or dis ease. And so the shaman, the, the, the wisdom people and the community would come around that and what would they do?
00:28:24:22 - 00:28:55:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
They would invoke movement, shaking and they would invoke sound. They would invoke rhythm. They would invoke a kind of wild beingness and, focus on behalf of that person that would say to the person in community, not just on a 1 to 1 basis in community, we want you back, bring your body back. And the mirror neurons and, all these beautiful things we know now would be the way, the medicine way.
00:28:55:25 - 00:29:27:04
Cynthia Winton-Henry
so, yeah, the craziness that we're in. And here's a cool thing, resetting ourselves to, as as sensitives or like one author says, 70% of us are sensitive. so we we framing sensitivity and then one, you know, one fifth to one third of us are highly sensitive. All right. And that's a spectrum as well. But if all of us there's a lot of us are sensitive, okay.
00:29:27:04 - 00:29:56:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
We all need to have presets. we probably each know something about what, what how we get there. But I've learned, that seven minutes of moving, breathing in an easy way to music will completely reset my my, my sensitive body that's gotten attention, you know, all over the place and, like, after this, you know, tonight I'll have I'll have a chance to do that.
00:29:56:19 - 00:30:26:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah, yeah. Sort of like stimulated. but we get it from walks and we get it from singing and, you know, in our cat. So, there's lots of ways it can happen, but it doesn't often happen these days in bodies. Yes. And it does happen in a playful way. You know, where you're not like there's not a has to, you know, not there's not a like you will perform.
00:30:26:00 - 00:30:32:03
Kelly Deutsch
So that did I read are are you also into interpersonal neurobiology.
00:30:32:05 - 00:30:37:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Well I, I kind of them but I don't know if it's a formal things and I was sure I name on it.
00:30:37:22 - 00:31:02:08
Kelly Deutsch
Sure. Yeah. No, I just find that so, fascinating. We had an interpersonal neurobiologist on here a while ago. Bonnie Badenoch. And she's marvelous. she was a yoga instructor or was deep into yoga and then was in, like, neuropsychology and is also a contemplative. She's just a beautiful human being. But she talks a lot about how self-regulation is is a myth.
00:31:02:11 - 00:31:25:05
Kelly Deutsch
She's like, neurobiology shows us that we co regulate like that's how our brains are wired from birth like an infant and its mother and you know, all of that. And so just imagining all of these group processes that are becoming much more popular now of, of chanting or drumming or singing or just any of those things and how helpful they are both for people who have experienced trauma.
00:31:25:05 - 00:31:42:29
Kelly Deutsch
And even if people, you know, some of us think that we don't have trauma because we think of trauma with a capital T, like car accidents and war and things. But I'm of the belief that we all have trauma of some sort, even if it's just neglect as a child or, you know, being bullied that one time and whatever it is.
00:31:43:01 - 00:32:14:24
Kelly Deutsch
But to find those ways that sync us up, that that image that you shared of, like the shaman in the community coming around and like reclaiming and inviting back this person's soul into their body and into the community. How powerful. You know, like, I wish we all had rituals like that when we just feel lost and disjointed and out of sorts because, my goodness, just the power of of our bodies in our very biology is kind of mind blowing.
00:32:14:26 - 00:32:40:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah. You know, one of the things for highly sensitive ones like us and I think, I think you're part of this, Kelly, in a big way by just having a podcast and welcoming people in to, to and seeing people. Thank you for seeing me. Yeah. Is, I believe that part of what is needed for highly sensitive people is credentialing.
00:32:40:22 - 00:33:05:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And that is that kind of being seen and recognized. So many of us, because of sensitivity, we have to protect ourselves. We sometimes have to withdraw. We sometimes feel just really weird and out of it because we're othered. we might see things and know things and feel things more intensely. and, you know, there there are forms of naming that.
00:33:05:19 - 00:33:25:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
But pretty much our culture just says, says the main way you get credentialed is to go to a into a program, pay a lot of money and come out with a degree. But in my book, the Art of in some and I kind of name the importance of credentialing and all the ways that we have of credentialing and seeing ourselves as credentialed.
00:33:25:29 - 00:33:57:26
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And that's one of the ways, I think, of stepping into deeper into the soul of our authority and our and, and and and regulating for ourselves with others. but like it does help that you ask, you know, me to be on the podcast and I consider that a form of credentialing. it is a real beautiful, important, seeing, I think we can do that for each other with thank you notes, with affirmation.
00:33:57:28 - 00:34:32:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
we can also we could ask our communities, you know, do you think. What do you think I am doing that is really valuable? when people pay me for something, I see payment as credentialing whether or not I have a certificate. so it's not just about some kind of formal thing. In fact, my mentors credentialing is the most precious credential to this in a way that, is honorable to you.
00:34:32:21 - 00:34:35:11
Cynthia Winton-Henry
When they say absolutely.
00:34:35:13 - 00:35:01:05
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I think that's very, very important to recognize. And I'm glad you gave some examples there because I think most of us have only heard of credentials as like the letters after your name that you paid like $100,000 in four years of your life to get or something. You know, but it's it is very interesting because then you'll also find practitioners who do have those letters after their names, but haven't necessarily done the soul work to a company that, you know.
00:35:01:05 - 00:35:25:18
Kelly Deutsch
So I'm thinking like therapist or spiritual directors and folks that can be all across the board, you know, and someone who may not have gotten a certificate or, you know, is whatever has different letters after their name as a therapist can be even more impactful sometimes as a healer and you know, someone who accompanies you through through difficulty, than somebody who just has letters after their name.
00:35:25:20 - 00:35:43:00
Kelly Deutsch
So I think that's, that's important to be able to, recognize, because I was talking to one spiritual director the other day, you know, who's, felt, she was like, you know, I'm not I'm not educated in any of these things. So she kept on saying that over and over, you know, like, I'm not educated in these.
00:35:43:00 - 00:36:03:27
Kelly Deutsch
I'm like, but if you've done the inner work, I don't care if you have the actual certificate signed by someone who says, you know, like, okay, we officially recognize it, but being able to offer that to one another and say, like, hey, I recognize that in you. Like, I see you, Cynthia, as having a deep sense of embodiment.
00:36:03:27 - 00:36:17:23
Kelly Deutsch
I love how even before we hit record, like, you know, you didn't have to ask permission. You're like, I just need to stand up and kind of shake out a little bit and make a little noise to, like, get my body to where it is because, you know, where you are in your body and what you need in order to be present.
00:36:17:25 - 00:36:29:03
Kelly Deutsch
So I think that's a beautiful thing and something that I need to remember to continue to, recognize and validate and credential others. As you said. So thank you for that.
00:36:29:09 - 00:37:13:11
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You know, the art of In Soul Man is really my sort of my, my the culmination of my what I've learned and my practices, as a, as a mystic, as a highly sensitive, creative soul. And what I learned from putting this book together, which is 12 different, elements or practices, is that these are each or initiations, something that I written, to learn and have to continue to learn to be and salt to have my soul here referenced, referencing soul in my body and healing that organization.
00:37:13:11 - 00:37:44:03
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So in body. So the subtitle of the book is How to create, how to Create from Body and soul has art, the arts, the creative process, which is so important. Right. the play of it. But these initiations, you know, are the, are the source of credentialing, real spiritual leadership or leadership in general. We don't have to call it spiritual leadership per se.
00:37:44:05 - 00:38:06:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
so, you know, the first four chapters of the book have to do with honoring your spirit team, which is basically, you know, are you initiated? Are you connected to your ancestor ancestry? is it how are you in honoring that lineage of, who's who's on your team? Is it a hummingbird? You know, are they are you acknowledging it?
00:38:06:21 - 00:38:19:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You know, like that sense of flow on the imaginal and the real level of, you know, at that. And that's an initiation in a time when we are, like, all supposed to be doing it on our own without. Yeah.
00:38:20:03 - 00:38:37:08
Kelly Deutsch
Can I pause there? I would love to hear more about that, especially for folks. I mean, I grew up Catholic, so, you know, communion of saints and all of that. And having like, friends that are saints is like pretty common. But I know there are plenty of people listening who who wouldn't even know where to start with the spirit team or don't necessarily have connections to their ancestors.
00:38:37:10 - 00:38:39:12
Kelly Deutsch
Where would a person get started?
00:38:39:14 - 00:39:03:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Hey, well, I think we just start with the people like who around us hope hopefully there is somebody, because truly there are places on the planet where there's nobody. Yeah. who is who is seeing you? Hmhm. And if you can't find a who what what, where do you go where you feel some kind of connection? Is it a tree?
00:39:03:27 - 00:39:29:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You know, is it a place on the land? you know, is it is it an element? So the elements, you know, the the our, First Nations folk, they start with the elements with, with Earth. That's and those are, that's living. That's not inanimate stuff. That's living elemental, you know, support. we can live without any of that, right?
00:39:29:03 - 00:39:55:05
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So, yeah, it's you can start really close. And, you know, the, the biggest thing about it is that we if we if we're feeling lonely and unsupported, then that's our initiation, that's our initiatory work. And if it isn't coming from the people we expect it should a partner or families, you know, we do need to go to wherever.
00:39:55:07 - 00:40:24:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I, I couldn't I had no ancestral story. I, I'm nobody in my family talked about especially in my mom. So I talked about anything and I and I was like, oh. And you know, ancestry comes up and like I couldn't figure it out. And so I started kind of like, okay, what am I supposed to do? So with, with my friend, my uncle Banda was from Malawi, and often teaches here in the U.S. he and I, we're in a workshop.
00:40:24:00 - 00:40:51:29
Cynthia Winton-Henry
We set this up, and one person would dance on behalf of the other person's ancestors, and, and then report back. And so I was dancing on behalf of my ancestors. And when he came back, he said, yeah, I saw some women, and they were kind of like, you know, don't bother. It's kind of messy. Oh, interesting.
00:40:52:02 - 00:41:18:21
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Don't bother. yeah. Just stick with where, you know, the support is. And from a on the imaginal level, I've, you know, I taught in a seminary dance and theology for 20 years, and I'm have a full, rich life with some of that stuff. So yeah, drawing on my imaginal, you know, community, invoking them and thanking them, like resting in that.
00:41:18:23 - 00:41:51:07
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Wow. And but here's a cool thing with in about 7 or 8 years following and listening to various instructions about ancestry, including one, one psychic telling me just to go sit on an old stump in the forest. my great grandmother's name is Elizabeth Stump. So just sitting on the on the cut off stump on the stump and my, my mom's partner eventually uncovered my mom's entire lineage all the way back to you.
00:41:51:08 - 00:42:24:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
The year 1000 without any work from my part. Wow. Including this Anne Hutchinson story, of which my family were members and part of this exile at the beginning of cut. And so, like, you know, the whole thing of like the magic of it and the play of it and the creativity of it and the listening for the instructions, you know, it's that it's a step by step process of this honoring,
00:42:24:26 - 00:42:25:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yes.
00:42:25:22 - 00:42:50:12
Kelly Deutsch
And it's something that I need to keep in mind is that it requires an intentionality. Right. It inquires will, like you said earlier, because just like any other friendship, like if I'm going to keep in touch with you, I can't just, you know, I can certainly send, like, good vibes your way and, you know, pray or whatever I dance on behalf of, but to maintain a relationship or require some sort of actual effort on either of our parts.
00:42:50:12 - 00:43:06:18
Kelly Deutsch
So there's a gigantic tree outside my house that I am in love with, and I'm like, I need to be more intentional instead of just because. Now that I'm in a new house, I don't have a fence around my yard. So I used to just go out and hug my trees and nobody, you know, I didn't care here.
00:43:06:18 - 00:43:08:06
Kelly Deutsch
I'm like, oh, the entire neighborhood.
00:43:08:06 - 00:43:09:03
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And so how do.
00:43:09:03 - 00:43:30:06
Kelly Deutsch
I wrap my arms around a tree? But I'm like, I've spent time with her a little bit more because just because I feel like the weirdo in the new neighborhood doesn't mean that I shouldn't maintain some sort of relationship with those who are on this spirit team of mine, and those who move us and support us.
00:43:30:09 - 00:44:10:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Love that. Yeah, yeah. And that's it. So that's why, like, I love the word initiation kind of reaching in, and being in wonder and curiosity about it, which is a great emotional muscle. A curious, curious is considered one of the core emotions. Right. or love, you know, curiosity, I think I find that fascinating. Yeah. So being curious about our spirit team, or anything that we feel is a growing edge is a much more playful, organic way than, like, telling myself, I better go do something.
00:44:10:18 - 00:44:11:16
Kelly Deutsch
Yes.
00:44:11:16 - 00:44:26:10
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Right. probably there's always in me going to be the better. Go do something, boy. Somewhere back there, I just can't wait. It's depressed, you know? But I think it's like, oh yeah, well.
00:44:26:12 - 00:44:54:19
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, yes, it's easy to, let different parts of us drive that maybe, shouldn't be at that particular moment, I, I had a, neurobiologist on who's who talks a lot about the Enneagram, and he used the analogy of, you know, all of these different parts within us, like, we all have all nine numbers, like different aspects of these personalities, and they all need to know how to fly the plane.
00:44:54:26 - 00:45:17:23
Kelly Deutsch
It's like they're all on the plane, but sometimes we're just way out of practice of, you know, like letting our eight lead when we need a little more forcefulness or, you know, letting our seven lead when we need a little more play and spontaneity, you know, and things like that. So that image has stuck with me as something like, okay, they all need to take a turn just depending it, you know, where we are in the sky, I suppose.
00:45:17:25 - 00:45:18:27
Kelly Deutsch
So that's a lovely you.
00:45:18:27 - 00:45:46:18
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Know, there's a couple of things I'd love for your listeners to play with, with me or anybody that I, I think these are not yet being spoken about in terms of spirit and soul. I just like to put them before you. Kelly, if I could, please. What is that? I believe that spiritual intelligence is the most important thing that will be needed in the in the decades and centuries to come.
00:45:46:20 - 00:46:16:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
I believe that spiritual intelligence is the culmination in the body of all the intelligences working together. so rather than looking specifically at spirituality, I believe it's the it's the culmination. and that's why a little kid can be spiritually intelligent as long as their systems are allowed to flow. And they I with really brilliant, brilliant things.
00:46:16:23 - 00:46:46:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Right. So I'd love for us to think more about that idea. so there's a kind of joy in bringing things, more and more in line, like my kinesthetic intelligence and my cognitive intelligence or my, you know, whatever all these different kinds of ways of processing which each one does a different job. and it can only be that intelligence.
00:46:46:21 - 00:47:24:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
So kinesthetic intelligence, which leads to dance, is a direct access way to power. so dance is, is directly related to a sense of empowerment, and the generating and creating of power, which is why it gets suppressed. why it was banned among Native Americans. African Americans outlawed, among pagans, etc., etc.. So it's not it's not just cultural identity.
00:47:24:27 - 00:47:47:01
Cynthia Winton-Henry
It is literally the source of power connected to. So all right, so the importance of spiritual intelligence and the freedom to have all of our as much as, as, as we want at any given time just to be in that flow of things, working together in us and to be seen as such. Right. So that's really important to me for conversation.
00:47:47:03 - 00:48:14:16
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And the other thing that's really important to me and I, this is kind of a see it in the art of and Solomon is that I don't think we're talking about the word soul. we're not using the word soul. We're probably afraid of it for a variety of good reasons. You know, religion, you know, certain governmental strategies around identity, the the shyness of the soul.
00:48:14:19 - 00:48:31:14
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You know it. Cetera. But I believe that soul is accessible. soul is in body and can be felt and noticed. And we can develop a a physical sense of the presence of our soul.
00:48:31:16 - 00:48:38:03
Kelly Deutsch
Tell me more about that, because I don't think most people are familiar with that, that, like, the soul can be sensed physically. Like what? What does that mean?
00:48:38:03 - 00:49:02:04
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Well, if we think that our soul is in our body, it's probably in there somewhere, but it's not being named or identified. However, in spiritual practice and spiritual teachers, we can feel feel a transmission of something from them. We might call it presence. Or like I said earlier, that you of you like, if I slow myself down, you have to kind of slow down for this, you know, to attend.
00:49:02:04 - 00:49:28:25
Cynthia Winton-Henry
What is that? What is that Kelly soul, you know, and like kind of it's a mystery. It's not like a super problem, but there's a presence there and it's deeper than even. It's embodied. It's not. It's in your words and thinking, but the. What is that? You know, that magic alchemical energy. So I feel it in myself as a kind of like when I'm able.
00:49:29:00 - 00:49:55:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And these words won't do it justice, but it's kind of like a humming, steadying neutral. Eternal, internal in the sense I don't feel a threat to it. or, like, oh, it's going to. I have to this is going to die. I don't feel that, you know, and like we can grow that sensation.
00:49:55:08 - 00:50:15:13
Cynthia Winton-Henry
We can we can grow our conversation when we're too in meditation, dancing, anything. Just asking ourselves, you know, to say, to say hello to our soul would be a good start because we're not using that word or this identity. We might talk about spirit and that works is a fine word, but it's tends to be more diffuse, energetic.
00:50:15:13 - 00:50:46:08
Cynthia Winton-Henry
The Dalai Lama says the spirit is kind of a high top of the peaks thing, and the soul is more like a down in the deep valley even he identifies. And that's one of the things I'm kind of pulling out in the art of and Solomon as I'm talking about this. So if you could get to that, this place where I think, great spiritual leaders, people who have experienced end of life death, loss and rebirth know something, that's awake in them and that there's a fearlessness that comes out of it.
00:50:46:08 - 00:51:17:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Right. And, and a deep a love that is coming from someplace that is not just about my heart or me. so it's not hidden. That's important. I can see it and sense it. it's accessible. I can go right there any time. It's not related to a religion or a certain practice. It's not. It's. It doesn't have to be sort of worked on.
00:51:17:25 - 00:51:58:14
Cynthia Winton-Henry
It's not hard. And it's not higher. Like, So I'm going to get to it at some point later in life. So the all these I heavy laden ideas about soul, I think are in the way from having us be, humans in body and soul in soul. Easy, playful, you know, simple, but more beautiful ways. And probably my big hope is more resourced, more so for these very difficult times, more resource together, more creative.
00:51:58:14 - 00:52:24:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
If we're if we're in, in soul and body, then organically as earth, we're connecting as a species more likely to connect. We see that when people sing together and do big, big flash mobs. And so we sync up and we get not only resourced, but we like like our First Nations people are our first peoples. They call in the rain.
00:52:25:00 - 00:52:56:06
Cynthia Winton-Henry
They collaborate with nature, with the divine. They they're not just, you know, as an individual body. and those are the people that say, you know, it's really all, it is about the dance. It is the dance of life. Right? I took this icon into a shop once, a Native American dollar kachina, and there was a guy in there who was a a craftsman.
00:52:56:06 - 00:53:14:21
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Crafters. And and I said, you know, I'm a, I'm a dancer and I'm trying to understand what this is and also trying to help my own people dance more. And he looked at me, this guy, I don't always Hopi or what, but he looked at me, he said. And I'm like, what? This teasing smile and says, I'm a dancer, too, you know?
00:53:14:21 - 00:53:34:18
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And it was like, I knew it in an instant. Like, of course, a dancer, even if he doesn't dance. Right. It's that's who you are, you know, that's who we are. So like how to get to that dancing. so yeah.
00:53:34:21 - 00:53:42:27
Kelly Deutsch
I think that's, an interesting conversation to be had around soul and how to.
00:53:44:10 - 00:54:15:29
Kelly Deutsch
Acknowledge it, access it regularly because, I mean, the image that I like to use sometimes is, is that, just, like, sinking to the ocean floor, you know, and there's like, this deep anchored ness down there because up on top, like, the waves are, so they can be thrashing like crazy. But if you can sink deep down into the dark depths where, like, there's still movement, but it's so much gentler, you know, you can feel like the tugs of the tide.
00:54:16:01 - 00:54:45:14
Kelly Deutsch
that to me is is such a beautiful place to live from in your body. And, it it reminds me a little bit of, internal family systems and doing parts work, like they talk about self with a capital S, and some people do just call it soul because that is the core of they've all these like C words, you know, they're like it's the seat of like curiosity and compassion and creativity and, you know, all of these beautiful resources that we need to live with.
00:54:45:17 - 00:54:49:10
Kelly Deutsch
so yeah, I think that is something we can have a whole nother conversation about.
00:54:49:10 - 00:54:53:00
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Right? Okay. And, yeah.
00:54:53:03 - 00:55:05:00
Kelly Deutsch
So we're we're about, to close on time here. do do you think we have time for just a short practice of some sort? We can do a small dance or a warm up or whatever you think is most appropriate.
00:55:05:00 - 00:55:32:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah, just do, like one of these incremental little practices. But it's so beautiful in interplay and in my life now is, one hand dance. Okay. And so, to do this, you just, I've got some music ready, but but we'll warm up first. Just bring one hand into the space and just let your hand move slow and smooth.
00:55:32:27 - 00:55:40:20
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And then let it move smooth and fast.
00:55:40:23 - 00:55:56:02
Cynthia Winton-Henry
It's warming up. What hands can do? move your hand in a jerky way. So jerky and slow.
00:55:56:04 - 00:56:12:26
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Good. And give you a hand some shaking. Right. And then just bring your hand into a shape. It'll be in the shape and moment. Feel it, and then let it shift to another shape.
00:56:12:28 - 00:56:49:27
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Another. And now we're going to move to a new shape. Really fast. Fast, fast. We can do that. And then just extend your arm into the space around you or back into contact, with your body just bringing your hand into connection with some place on your body that just feels good or comforting. And I'm going to give us some music with our hand being a little bit warmed up here, we'll take a moment just to let this hand dance and, play as a meditation.
00:56:49:27 - 00:57:10:22
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Just as if we were following the breath or whatever. It's kind of like we can just watch the hand. If your other hand gets jealous, you can include it. There's, like, no big rules about this. and if you don't feel like doing it, you can just listen to the music and just be. So here's a little piece of music for a hand dance.
00:57:10:24 - 00:57:13:09
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Here we go.
00:57:13:12 - 00:57:24:06
Cynthia Winton-Henry
With the right air.
00:57:24:09 - 00:57:43:16
Unknown
Hey! Woo woo!
00:57:43:18 - 00:57:49:08
Unknown
You.
00:57:49:10 - 00:58:40:22
Unknown
Hey, hey. Oh oh, you. Who? Did.
00:58:40:24 - 00:58:54:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
You just want to acknowledge, that's a piece called Shallow Water from. Yeah. Has scale rise. And it's really, musician. Beautiful. Thank you.
00:58:54:27 - 00:59:05:08
Kelly Deutsch
That was delightful. And I think a wonderful way to, allow people to land a little bit after this lovely conversation.
00:59:05:10 - 00:59:06:11
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Thank you.
00:59:06:13 - 00:59:22:09
Kelly Deutsch
So, Cynthia, other are like, you know, dozens of other questions that I could have asked today, but, for folks who want to learn more about you, your work, your books, what you do, where should they go?
00:59:22:12 - 00:59:46:23
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah. One of the easiest places to go is to the Amazon. my Amazon authors page. because they have put all the books right there for easy reading with all the descriptions and reviews and all of that stuff, including my new book, the Artemis and Solomon How to Create from Body and Soul, which will be hopefully the publish button hit will be hit next week.
00:59:46:25 - 01:00:06:07
Cynthia Winton-Henry
so I hope people will take a look at that. I would love for anybody who's interested to read and learn and journey with me a little bit to join me on Substack at the Dancing Center. under my name, Cynthia Went and Henry at the Dancing Center. If you're a sub stacker, that's a great platform, by the way, I love it.
01:00:06:09 - 01:00:33:02
Cynthia Winton-Henry
And, I have a website called The Hidden Monastery, and it is, under my name, Cynthia Winton Henry. So, you know, I've used my name as kind of my handle. but at the hidden monastery, you'll find my courses, and you'll also find online Dan's chapels, led by both me and other wonderful people. And these are online hourlong spaces where people are using movement and contemplative practice.
01:00:33:02 - 01:00:42:13
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Art making, etc. for, you know, this kind of restorative, care and for dancing and praying on behalf of one another.
01:00:42:16 - 01:01:06:07
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. And I highly encourage people to check that out. I first discovered interplay 6 or 7 years ago, and I was living in South Dakota. And so like, you know, I was like, there's probably not enough to play group around here. But I found these online groups of people who are just experiencing movement. We danced on behalf of each other and it was such a beautiful, just both embodied, but also very communal experience.
01:01:06:07 - 01:01:32:04
Kelly Deutsch
So if you haven't experienced interplay before, I highly encourage you to check it out. Check out Cynthia's new book, the Art of and supplement. It's it's a beautiful combination of both, your your thoughts and learnings and experiences. But it's also like this creative Art Journal workbook exercise. It's just like a lovely conglomeration, so that it becomes an experience instead of just something to read.
01:01:32:06 - 01:01:33:19
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Yeah. Thank you. So,
01:01:33:21 - 01:01:41:13
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing all of your, your wisdom and your stories with us. It was such a delight to have you here today.
01:01:41:15 - 01:01:44:24
Cynthia Winton-Henry
Thank you. I'm so glad to be spiritually wandering with you.
01:01:44:27 - 01:01:48:22
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, indeed. We're delighted to have you. And thank you everyone, for.