Mysticism and Creation Spirituality - with Matthew Fox

Fifty years ago, a young Matthew Fox asked Thomas Merton where he should go to study the mystics. What followed was a lifetime passion for Christianity’s mystical tradition, and its intimate, feminine, socially active, and uplifting spirit.

Matthew, now a spiritual theologian, is a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Join us for a jam-packed conversation about:

🔸 The necessary but often-forgotten connection between mysticism and social justice

🔹 Which of the two streams of Christianity is dominant today

🔸 What caused the shift from a love-based religion to a fear-based religion

🔹 How contemplation impacts our reptilian brains

🔸 Why we need both the sacred feminine and the sacred masculine

–And so much more!

Matthew Fox is a spiritual theologian, retreat leader, and activist. He has written over 3 dozen books including Original Blessing, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, A Spirituality Named Compassion, The Hidden Spirituality of Men, Christian Mystics and Julian of Norwich: Wisdom in a Time of Pandemic--and Beyond. To learn more about Matthew and his work, visit www.matthewfox.org.

If you enjoyed this conversation, you’ll love Matthew’s live masterclass on Julian of Norwich and Divine Motherhood! To join us live on May 7 or to access the recording, visit www.womenmystics.org.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:03

Kelly Deutsch

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Deutsch. And today, well, really recently I've had mystics on my mind. We've been going through this Women Mystics school, and it's been so fun digging into all these different mystical writings. And so I'm extra excited to speak with the spiritual theologian Matthew Fox today, who has contributed quite a lot to the resurgence of interest in mystical Christianity.

00:00:29:05 - 00:00:49:10

Kelly Deutsch

For those of you who might be unfamiliar with Matthew, he is a popular teacher and retreat leader and activist and has written over three dozen books, including The Original Blessing, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, A Spirituality Named Compassion, The Hidden Spirituality of Men, Christian Mystics, and many more. So I'm very excited to have him on the show today.

00:00:49:11 - 00:00:50:19

Kelly Deutsch

Welcome, Matthew.

00:00:50:21 - 00:00:56:04

Matthew Fox

Thank you Kelly. Yeah, for the work you're doing. And in bringing the mystics alive.

00:00:56:06 - 00:01:01:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, absolutely. It's a wonderful thing to be a part of.

00:01:01:03 - 00:01:02:29

Matthew Fox

I'm glad you have mystics on your mind.

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:26:26

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, indeed. I was curious, Matthew. If you'd start us off today just by sharing how you came to discover the mystics. Because there are millions of Christians who are completely unaware of even having a mystical tradition within Christianity. And even those of us who are in, you know, monasteries or convents aren't always well formed in it. So I'm curious how it came across your radar in the first place.

00:01:26:29 - 00:02:00:16

Matthew Fox

Well, when I was doing my studies with the Dominicans in the early 60s, I went to my superiors one day and said, look, I said, my generation is going to be less interested in religion and more interested in spirituality. And of course, spiritual is the experience side of theology. And I said, and we're not we don't have a single course here in spirituality, and we're trying to live it and and all that, but we don't have a course about it and about the mystics.

00:02:00:16 - 00:02:21:27

Matthew Fox

We didn't have a single course in the mystics in my training. And, and I said, so send someone on to get a doctorate in spirituality. And I said, I'm happy to volunteer. So a couple of years later, they came back to me and said, well, good news, you can. The provincial council says you can go to go to Europe and get a doctorate spirituality.

00:02:21:27 - 00:02:42:27

Matthew Fox

And then then we thought about where to go. And I wrote Thomas Merton and asked him, where should I go? Dumps Merton Center and my the Dominicans thought I was crazy, right? And that I'd never hear from them. Four days later, I got a full page letter saying go to the Institute, got a leak in Paris. And so I showed it to them and said, so now I know where I have to go.

00:02:42:28 - 00:02:49:25

Matthew Fox

Oh no, they said, we can't send you to France. I said, why not? We never sent anyone to France who came home again.

00:02:49:27 - 00:02:53:01

Kelly Deutsch

Said, everyone wants to stay.

00:02:53:03 - 00:03:17:25

Matthew Fox

Yeah, exactly. So? So it was like a standoff. For two months. I kept hitting them over the head with Merton's letter, and finally they said, okay, get out of here. Go to Paris. Then, of course, years later, they regretted that I did come home. But that's the story. But, But, I, I mean, the mystics are poets and, poets of the soul, and, I was drawn to them, of course.

00:03:17:28 - 00:03:47:15

Matthew Fox

And, but I'll tell you, like Meister Eckhart, who was one of the greatest of the mystics of the West and was a Dominican, I never heard his name once in all my 2010 years of training as a Dominican. but I discovered Eckhart this way. I'd published a couple of books, and then I read a wonderful essay by Coomer Swami, the Hindu scholar, on, nature and spirit and so forth.

00:03:47:17 - 00:04:11:10

Matthew Fox

And, and it was a chapter in our card. I read that chapters. Oh my God, there were sentences from America that I had published in an article that year. I couldn't believe it. It scared me. I put myself, and then a couple of months later, I gingerly tipped over to the book again and finished that article. And then I had a conversion like, oh, here's a buddy, here's a friend.

00:04:11:12 - 00:04:32:11

Matthew Fox

I want to know Eckhart better. Then I had an operation from a serious car accident, and during the operation, Eckhart came to me and we were walking together on the beach. The most transcendent dream of my life. And we didn't say anything. There was just silence. But I. When I came out of my ether or whatever it was, I said to a friend who is at the bedside.

00:04:32:13 - 00:04:52:14

Matthew Fox

I've just been walking with Manchester cod on the beach, and that's when I really plunged into Eckhart. And then he brought me to Hildegard's and, And the gang Julian Norwich and of course, Aquinas side study for years with the Dominicans, but they never mentioned his mystical side. I mean, they never did anything that they have mentioned.

00:04:52:16 - 00:05:20:05

Matthew Fox

Or he was also mystic, but no one had developed it, and they didn't know what questions to ask. And, notice, even in trying to study mysticism, I had to go to France. I couldn't, you know, Merton didn't recommend any university in the United States. He did mention, McGill in Canada. But, you know, the American church has been much more pragmatic, I guess you might say.

00:05:20:07 - 00:05:45:16

Matthew Fox

But as you say, we've missed our depth dimension to, who Jesus was, who was a mystic and a nature mystic, a Christian mystic out of the wisdom tradition of Israel, which is creation spirituality, pure and simple. And the prophetic tradition was just part of creation. And it was in Paris that I met my mentor personally, a wonderful 75 year old Dominican at the time.

00:05:45:16 - 00:06:07:03

Matthew Fox

It was the last year of teaching there, and he named the creation Spiritual tradition and the Fall Redemption tradition. And for me, that was like Paul falling off his horse. It just answered all my questions because I was there in in the late 60s. And the big question in my mind was, what's religious for mysticism and social justice?

00:06:07:03 - 00:06:35:09

Matthew Fox

Is it a relationship because I didn't see anyone making the connection, and who answered it? For me? In the forward administration, there is no connection. It's dualistic, and they don't want to connect the prophetic. And and they talk about illumination and union. But I found the four paths of creation spirituality, which are found in Eckhart. they absolutely marry social justice with, mystical, spiritual grounding.

00:06:37:02 - 00:06:38:15

Matthew Fox

Yeah. That's been my work ever since.

00:06:38:21 - 00:07:12:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. And I find that really interesting because you'll find at least you know, having come from the Catholic tradition myself, like they'll speak frequently of the contemplative and the active being married together. But I feel like it's also somewhat rare, except maybe in more progressive circles to actually see that incarnate. You know, it's like on the one side you get maybe some people, maybe you got some Carmelites or something who are actually talking about the contemplative tradition, and then you have some people who are doing social justice but maybe don't have that deep rootedness in the mystical or in, you know, the spiritual life.

00:07:12:09 - 00:07:19:07

Kelly Deutsch

Really? Why do you suppose that is? Why? Why do we separate them so much?

00:07:19:09 - 00:07:52:09

Matthew Fox

Well, for one thing, I think it's part of the modern consciousness and part of the age of Pisces, the age of Pisces, through which the Christian church has existed exclusively until our lifetimes. The Age of Aquarius. Pisces, is symbolized by two fish swimming in the opposite direction. So I think there's a lot of dualism in the age of Pisces and in obviously modern consciousness, because modern consciousness, Descartes, I think, therefore I am what you think you're thinking.

00:07:52:15 - 00:08:14:03

Matthew Fox

You exist. I power, but there's 13.8 billion years of history that have brought you here, Mr. Descartes, and made life possible on the planet. So really, let's get out of that egoism. so I think that's one of the reasons. The other is political, of course, that, politicians don't want to hear about love and compassion and justice.

00:08:14:03 - 00:08:40:02

Matthew Fox

It can often skew. They are. I mean, some do, but many don't. those who represent, those who are doing very well in the present system, in the building of empires, they don't want to hear about original blessing. They want to hear about original sin. They don't want to hear about the empowerment of creativity, that everyone is an image and likeness of God and therefore has something to, to share.

00:08:40:05 - 00:09:12:27

Matthew Fox

And, and they don't want to hear about justice and compassion. They want to hear about charities and non profit tax write offs. But they, you know, and so like Thomas Merton, you know, for 18 years in the monastery, he wrote exclusively really about contemplation and all that. And he did a good job. But in 1958 he met Suzuki, the Zen Buddhist, who brought from Japan, who brought Zen Buddhism to America.

00:09:12:29 - 00:09:36:01

Matthew Fox

And Suzuki said, you have to read your one Zen thinker, the rest Meister Eckhart. and Merton said, well, he was condemned by the church and Suzuki, and I can't help that. So Merton sat down and started to read Eckhart, because until then he was very suspicious of that character. You see, Eckhart was condemned a week after he died, and in the 14th century, under a very corrupt pope.

00:09:36:03 - 00:10:02:12

Matthew Fox

And, and as a result, he banished essentially from the theology. Philosophers took him up, but not theologians. But the point is that, he converted Merton to being a just a contemplative and dualistic and Augustinian based monk, full of guilt and shame to being a prophetic Christians. In the last ten years of his life, from 58 to 68, Merton was a different person.

00:10:02:12 - 00:10:26:20

Matthew Fox

You can see it in the the titles of his books. He's writing about war and peace. He's wrote about the Vietnam more, he's writing about women's rights, he's writing about indigenous rights, about the genocide toward the American Indian and all this, all this prophetic vocation of his came flowing out. And it was all due to Eckhart. And he said that in his he said Eckhart in his Asian Journal, writing it on the side.

00:10:26:20 - 00:11:13:24

Matthew Fox

You say Eckhart is my life. Eckhart is my life book. And, the second last book, is on, Zen on the Bird of Appetites is all accurate. And Suzuki. So he's bringing eastern, Western mysticism together there, too. So that's just one example of someone who did integrate it. But again, it's Eckhart who. So at the, at the the core of bringing justice and spirituality together, justice in the mystical and the prophetic is this language I use and I think that's appropriate language because it's quite, it's as as Jewish scholars have told me, the four pillars that we lay out are Jewish, therefore they're biblical.

00:11:13:24 - 00:11:36:06

Matthew Fox

Therefore Jesus knew them. Jesus never heard a version of sin, never heard of it. It was first used in the fourth century, the same century the church inherited the empire by Saint Augustine. So whereas original blessing the Jews jump on that, they get that reread Genesis one. It's all about goodness. Blessing is is a just another word for goodness.

00:11:36:09 - 00:12:01:10

Matthew Fox

The whole goes through all of creation, so all good. And at the end when humans arrive, it's very good. You know, the sin thing that's comes later. But first comes a view of positiva and religion. When it's bought by empires. Doesn't want to talk about the V a positive that much. It wants you to get on your knees and, obey.

00:12:01:10 - 00:12:36:18

Matthew Fox

Whether it's the Empire asking you to obey or whether it's, religion escalator de it doesn't encourage creativity via creative, and therefore not the via transformative because the prophets were all creative. and, they were all artists in their way, even Gandhi and King, I used to call them social artists because they organized the anger of the people, and instead of it venting and and being destructive, the nonviolent approach is to organize, to fill the jails, to do the march, to march to the sea.

00:12:36:20 - 00:13:05:15

Matthew Fox

and, that's that's prophetic because it is interfering, but it's also mystical. So, to me, spiritualize both the mystical, the mystic in us, which is the lover that sided with us, says yes to life, and the prophet which says no to injustice. And and it's that balance of both. It makes us adults fiercely. Contemplation alone is not enough.

00:13:05:17 - 00:13:31:23

Matthew Fox

And it you can get very comfortable being a contemplative. but stepping out and think of technology Saint that is just passed. he was both he he had to invent a new word, engaged Buddhism because in his tradition to it was after all, he broke with his own country about the war, the Vietnam War. He was against both the North and the South.

00:13:31:23 - 00:13:56:17

Matthew Fox

It really made him a lot of friends. he had to leave because of that. But, so the the prophet is is a mystic in action. William Hacking says the prophet is a mystic in action. So it is that love that you learn in contemplation that, sets a fire in you, that you're willing to take on forces that that are dangerous.

00:13:56:20 - 00:14:02:06

Matthew Fox

Large forces, like like King did and like Jesus did. Yeah. McMartin did.

00:14:02:08 - 00:14:03:04

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:14:03:07 - 00:14:04:18

Matthew Fox

Yeah.

00:14:04:21 - 00:14:26:02

Kelly Deutsch

You can really well known for this creation spirituality that you've mentioned a few times. And for people who are not familiar with that, I mean, you've explained a little bit of it, like in Genesis, in the original blessing, but how would you describe it in a couple sentences for people who are unfamiliar with that and how it might be distinct from, especially the form of Christianity that they've received.

00:14:26:04 - 00:14:58:08

Matthew Fox

With a form of Christianity that most people have received, unfortunately, is what Chanu and Chanu was a great church historian. it was very important of the Second Vatican Council. but he was silenced by Pope Pius to off for, I think, 12 years forbidden to write because he was working with the Marxists after the war. And, and he was reinventing the education for priests, for Dominicans, and it was too much for Rome to take in the 40s and 50s.

00:14:58:10 - 00:15:40:07

Matthew Fox

But, Chanu says there are two traditions in the West. One is for all. Redemption begins at the fall, and then everything else is about redemption. and that's the that's become the dominant version of Christianity since the Black Death, since the 14th century. And that's why Julian of Norwich is so important. She's sitting over my shoulder here, because she lived through the Black Death, and yet she said absolutely to to the to the other tradition of spirituality, which is older because it's in, Genesis one, it's in the first author of the Bible, the source.

00:15:40:09 - 00:16:05:03

Matthew Fox

And, and, the Jewish tradition talks that talks about sin, of course, but it doesn't begin with it. It begins with what I have called original blessing. Aquinas says a phrase, original grace, which is beautiful and original goodness. He has a phrase original goodness, which is wonderful. It's the same thing as the original blessing, though I got condemned for receiving blessing and he didn't.

00:16:05:03 - 00:16:29:17

Matthew Fox

But what can you say? there were better theologians in the 13th century than in the 20th. In the in the Vatican. But, so the, the, the original blessing or true spiritual tradition is the oldest tradition. The Bible is tradition of Jesus. Why? We now know that Jesus comes from the wisdom tradition of Israel and the prophets.

00:16:29:17 - 00:16:53:24

Matthew Fox

But the wisdom tradition includes the prophets. wisdom is a friend of the prophets, says the wisdom teachings in the Hebrew Bible. So that means Jesus comes from the Christian spiritual tradition, because that is finally God in nature. There are many scholars who believe that Jesus was forbidden to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath, because he would consider it a legitimate.

00:16:53:26 - 00:17:18:12

Matthew Fox

Therefore, when others were at the synagogue on the Sabbath, he went out to nature. and check it out. How much of his teaching, all of his parables are saturated? It is keen observations about sparrows. It far from trees and and seeds that grow mustard seed and big trees and little trees, and the sheep and the goats and the lilies of the field.

00:17:18:17 - 00:17:43:07

Matthew Fox

I mean, he's saturated. And of course, he was a peasant farmers family, was a peasant farmer, and he was a craftsman. His father taught him the trade of woodcarving. So, that's who he was. And of course, he was a parable maker. He was an artist. Therefore use a story teller and a great artist. He did, you know, he didn't go through a seminary, and he he, he was most likely illiterate.

00:17:43:07 - 00:18:22:03

Matthew Fox

In fact, he was a busy reading. He's very busy hearing and observing and listening to people's stories and suffering and the rest. So, this is tradition of Jesus, but it's also tradition of all these great mystics and especially and of course, the Celtic tradition. The Celts settled down the Rhineland and all the way into northern Italy, which is why we have Francis of Assisi and into northern Spain, which is why we have Saint Dominic and, and, and I call Hildegard of Bingen because she lived most of the 11th century.

00:18:22:06 - 00:18:46:22

Matthew Fox

or, excuse me, the 12th century, the 1100s. she I call her the grandmother of the Rhine, the mystic movement. Because she was the first, if you will, since the Scottish origin in the ninth century. Theologian who was Celtic, who who taught in Europe. But then after Hildegard, two years after Hildegard died, was born Francis of Assisi.

00:18:46:24 - 00:19:12:12

Matthew Fox

Well, he's creation center. And then following him was, a Thomas Aquinas. He was creation center. He says most action thing in the universe is not the human. The most natural thing in the universe is the universe itself. that's from a doctor of the church and then cosmic Joseph Magdeburg, who was a begin, and that was a women's movement of the 13th century.

00:19:12:15 - 00:19:33:10

Matthew Fox

And they were hounded and screamed at by men all over. The Pope condemned them 17 different times because they were women who did not choose to get married, and did not choose to live as nuns at that time, and not had to be behind a Christian world. They lived in, cities, especially with the people, especially the young, serving the young.

00:19:33:10 - 00:19:56:17

Matthew Fox

They didn't live with them, live with each other. But, she was a big game and hounded a lot. And then comes Meister Eckhart, who was very close to the big games. The big Edens, in fact, wrote down his sermons in German as well, where he had his servants and, he was condemned by the same pope who condemned the big game 17 times, John the 22nd.

00:19:56:20 - 00:20:19:20

Matthew Fox

But that was a week after, Eckhart died. And then after Eckhart comes Julian to Norwich. So there's this incredible lineage, and then comes a Black Death. And you see, Julian was seven when the bubonic plague hit for the first time. And then it kept running back in waves her entire lifetime. She lived into her 80s and everyone else just freaking out and about.

00:20:19:23 - 00:20:45:14

Matthew Fox

You know, God is trying to punish us for her sins. That's why the plague is here. They said. And others said, you know, it's nature's bad. And all this. She reinforces the the beauty and the goodness. And she says, God is the goodness and nature. God is of goodness and nature. And, the dualism of Saint Augustine and the original sin and the redemption tradition came back.

00:20:45:14 - 00:21:09:25

Matthew Fox

And in a wave, you see, during the bubonic plague, they had no scientists to promise a vaccine or explain where it comes from. They didn't have word for virus, so they were all, so, so Thomas Berry, the great geologist, says that the creation would kill creation. Scripture in the West was the bubonic plague. Now, after the 14th century, everything was about the fear of death and the fear of nature.

00:21:09:25 - 00:21:31:22

Matthew Fox

It was no longer about finding God in nature, which is where Jesus from God. And we're create. Spirituality finds God. But it's about, the fear of nature and the fear of death. And you see this in the 16th century with the Reformation, not only the Reformation, but the Counter-Reformation from the Catholics. none of them are talking about about creation.

00:21:31:26 - 00:21:57:29

Matthew Fox

Now, John the Cross is as a mystic and as a poet, but he stands alone of most of that. And so, so much of religion in the West since the 14th century has been this depressing redemption thing. and not about the theophany, the God experience that nature can be. And and then, of course, there was a split with, with science in the 17th century.

00:21:58:01 - 00:22:21:07

Matthew Fox

And I ascribe that to the the moment really when the church burned down a Bruno at the state, what was the issue? Who was John? But he was a Dominican, like, I can't like Thomas Aquinas like myself. And he was burned at the stake. Why? Because he he was preaching Copernicus, a scientist of his day, just like it.

00:22:21:09 - 00:22:52:27

Matthew Fox

Aquinas was preaching Aristotle, the scientist of his day, who had just been discovered. But in Europe, thanks to the Muslims. By the way, you translated him in Baghdad and into Latin, and thereby he came into Spain and then into Europe. But, so Bruno was was burned at the stake because of his affirm affirmation of science. And, so I think there was like a truce the, the sign to said, hey, these believers are kind of scary.

00:22:52:29 - 00:23:15:25

Matthew Fox

They're not only burn him and say they cut his tongue out first. They tortured him. And so, and that was done in the Jubilee year of 1600 and by the Inquisition, Cardinal Bellarmine actually was behind it. And, so the judge said, let's make a truce with the believers. Why don't you guys take the souls and we'll take the cosmos?

00:23:15:27 - 00:23:42:10

Matthew Fox

Oh, goody, goody said. All these people trained by Augustine, that nature is all fallen anyway. Who gives a dirt about nature? and so, living out that dualism, they said, oh, we'll take the soul. But what's happened since since we've had the schizophrenic Homo sapiens, where you have the scientists discovering the power of the universe and then turning to turn it into nuclear weapons and machines that can deliver them.

00:23:42:12 - 00:24:10:22

Matthew Fox

So that's pretty darn scary. And then we've had religion becoming more and more silly and more and more introspective and really sick just this week. There is a thing about it. I mean, it's funny, but it's unbelievable. A priest in a parish in Phenix. Turns out when he was baptizing children for years, he said, we baptize the name of the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit.

00:24:10:24 - 00:24:32:13

Matthew Fox

And now the bishop has kicked him out of his parish, and he has to do penance. And now they wonder, they're saying, and then the CDF from Rome has chimed in and said, oh my God, oh, they're losing their minds over this. No one's been baptized and people have been married. Doesn't mean it means their marriages aren't real.

00:24:32:15 - 00:24:43:19

Matthew Fox

priests are not real priests. They have to be reordering because of this. And they go, oh, forget it. It's just it's so crazy, right?

00:24:43:21 - 00:24:46:04

Kelly Deutsch

Because like I said, the magic spell wrong.

00:24:46:06 - 00:25:10:15

Matthew Fox

The world is burning. Meanwhile, there are other important things going on. I don't think God gives a damn. Where do you say the word Eire re? Furthermore, the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church accepts the baptism of Orthodox. They've never baptized with those words. They have a different baptismal thing and the same with Protestants with the Catholic Church also recognizes.

00:25:10:19 - 00:25:42:13

Matthew Fox

So the whole thing is it just shows to me the for the sickness of an organization that has lost its roots and and in the mystical, truths that Jesus taught and that other mystics have built their lives on and they were all invited to participate in. So, meanwhile, though, the good news is that science is thrown over the mechanistic view of the world that it had during the modern era and the dualistic view.

00:25:42:16 - 00:26:02:27

Matthew Fox

And frankly, there are a lot more scientists today who are mystics, and I have met a lot of them. Then there are bishops. And, so the truth is that that, science and spirituality are linking up again in our time and quantum theory and all the rest is rediscovering not only the, the mystery of the universe, but the beauty, of course.

00:26:02:27 - 00:26:35:15

Matthew Fox

And now this telescope, the Webb telescope, the new creation story, all of it feeds our sense of awe and wonder, gratitude and reverence, which is the video positive of the mystics is the first stage of mysticism. As Robert Hanson says, is the beginning of wisdom. And if we can move as a species from knowledge to wisdom, which means from the exclusive, patriarchal and masculine to a balanced feminine and a healthy masculine, we may save ourselves.

00:26:35:15 - 00:27:07:08

Matthew Fox

But that to me, that's our our last hope as a species. And one thing I've been meditating on a lot lately is they're discovering all these cousins of ours. You know, we've heard about Neanderthals because they were from Europe. But, and then we've heard the Denison's, and they were part Europe's Iberian silver. But now in Southeast Asia, they've discovered 12 more of our cousins, you know, and, and that is, of course, a hominids like us who are as.

00:27:07:10 - 00:27:42:00

Matthew Fox

But the point is, we now have 14 by name that I know of anyway. And we're discovering more all the time. But the point is, the bottom line is they're all extinct except us. 13 are gone. we're, you know, and we're facing our own extinction. I think that information regarding, the context of our species and this religion and its education and its, its, empires and all that into context that, you know, we the odds are that we will go the way of other hominids.

00:27:42:00 - 00:28:07:14

Matthew Fox

They all had failures and didn't make it. And, we we've been, you know, very resilient and very, successful as, as a species for 300,000 years. But, hey, we're we're on the verge of, of ending it all. And when religion gets tied up, whether you say I or we and freak out and oh, my God, it's is is it's really.

00:28:07:16 - 00:28:21:06

Matthew Fox

It's a joke. It's. But it's a scandal. Two tremendous scandal shows the the sickness right. Institution of religion. Why so many young people just turning their back on the more important things to worry about? Yeah.

00:28:21:09 - 00:28:40:28

Kelly Deutsch

Whether you can say like, I feel like those who are who are listening can probably relate to a lot of that. The, you know, following the the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, where it's like, oh, make sure you do things right. And like, you know, there just so many pieces there that, something Interiorly says, like, really?

00:28:40:29 - 00:28:43:04

Kelly Deutsch

Is this. Yeah. It's really what it's like.

00:28:43:06 - 00:28:45:02

Matthew Fox

Yeah, yeah. Is this.

00:28:45:09 - 00:28:47:19

Kelly Deutsch

There are people starving, you know, of the planet.

00:28:47:19 - 00:28:48:27

Matthew Fox

And just.

00:28:49:00 - 00:28:51:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, there's so many other things going on that seem more impartial.

00:28:51:28 - 00:29:14:11

Matthew Fox

Himself, who was a great mystic, said, the letter kills the spirit, gives life. like you say, that's the literal ism. and, it's taken over. Assume it's not just religion, the suffering from this. I think a lot of the legal profession is about nitpicking and and, you know, it's very distant from justice. Yeah. It wants to claim it's close.

00:29:14:11 - 00:29:27:25

Matthew Fox

Justice, but rarely is it I think it's it's a game that lawyers play. one upmanship and it's patriarchy I see is that problem. yeah. Up original sin. I think it's patriarchy.

00:29:27:27 - 00:29:41:01

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I was going to say talk to me a little bit about the relationship of patriarchy with kind of this fallen redemption versus creation spirituality. Like what how do they relate to one another?

00:29:41:03 - 00:30:12:17

Matthew Fox

Well, you know, also, you see contemplation. I think I would call more feminine dimension of religion. It's about silence. It's about receiving is the via negativa. And and therefore it's about darkness and, and union hmhm profound union and silence and and also art because as I tell my students, they're two responses to mystical experience. One is silence and the other is creativity.

00:30:12:19 - 00:30:36:00

Matthew Fox

But to art. So you want to dance, you want to sing or write a play poetry. But you know, that's the via creative. you know, my story says I once had a dream. Even though a man I was pregnant. Pregnant with nothingness and out of the nothingness. God was born. says so much as says. Is that about the negative of the nothingness experience?

00:30:36:02 - 00:31:01:06

Matthew Fox

But it's also about the via creative. So the via negativa proceeds via naked, creative. and it's like mind emptiness has to precede mindfulness. And so we have to calm the mind and, and that's what meditation contemplation does. I think it calms reptilian brain because the reptilian brain and I'm getting the patriarchy. I think it's the basis of patriarchy.

00:31:01:08 - 00:31:31:27

Matthew Fox

A reptile it with the reptiles removes you. Don't compromise with that. With an alligator or crocodile, you know it's win lose. They're not real good at bonding with their own children, but they're very good with, lying in the sun alone. alligators like to do that a lot, and so do snakes and others. So I think they're very good at, at, at contemplation then because, the word monk monos means solitude.

00:31:32:00 - 00:32:00:19

Matthew Fox

So the, our reptilian brain is very susceptible to solitude. So how are you? Calm, you reptile? Nice crack down, nice crack down. That's what meditation does. And that's so important because, the reptilian brain is 420 million years old. Our mammal brain is exact half 210 million. Now, all the great spiritual teachers, Jesus and Isaiah and Buddha. And now it's Sue and and, chief Seattle and Black Elk and Dorothy Day.

00:32:00:19 - 00:32:23:29

Matthew Fox

They're all calling us to compassion. Compassion is mammal thing because the very words in Hebrew and Arabic for compassion comes from the word for womb. So the womb people are the mammals. So this is what all of the great teachers are telling us you're capable and Jesus. Luke six but are you compassionate? Like you're creative and it's compassionate.

00:32:24:01 - 00:32:50:20

Matthew Fox

So it's a it's such a universal idea. The Dalai Lama says we can do away with our religion, but we can't do away with compassion. Compassion is my religion. That's a quote from The Alamo. That's Jesus 626 and Matthew 25, and all the rest is permeates his teaching. And in the Jewish tradition from which Jesus derives, of course, compassion is the secret name for God.

00:32:50:22 - 00:33:16:24

Matthew Fox

But Jesus let that secret out of the bag of the six. So my point is that patriarchy is built on the reptilian brain. It's I win, you lose. That's the definition of patriarchy. And Rosemarie Ruther says it's built on dualism. And she is, of course, one of the pioneers of feminist theology. She says that, patriarchy is essence is dualism.

00:33:16:26 - 00:33:45:09

Matthew Fox

And that's where you have seen Augusta. And and for all redemption, religion, you're saved or you're not. You're only to be saved in this way and not that way and all the rest. And, but that's not how how the world is, is not how the universe or cosmos is. and, so the the, the, the, the patriarchy has served the interests of empire.

00:33:45:11 - 00:34:16:07

Matthew Fox

and patriarchy came along from the best we know around 4500 BC. for thousands years before that, there were basically goddess civilizations, and they were not built on conquering other people. And, in fact, we find no weapons in these ancient structures from that era when when the goddess reigned, when the when the mother reigned. And, what we do see are thousands of statues of.

00:34:16:08 - 00:34:39:13

Matthew Fox

In fact, I have one here that someone sent me ugly pregnant lots of the pregnant goddess Hmhm that dozens of these. And, men say, oh, it was all about orgies. No, it wasn't. There is a taboo to us. The great archeologist brings out. It was about honoring creativity, not just in the female, but in the male, too.

00:34:39:19 - 00:35:04:00

Matthew Fox

That's with the Green Man archetype. It's all about how, how men too are generative, like nature is. And, and, so is honoring the victory achievers honoring and that is biblically, of course, honoring our, our being, the image and likeness of God that we are co-creators with God. And that word is actually used by Saint Paul.

00:35:04:02 - 00:35:47:24

Matthew Fox

And, so that's to be a creative diva. So, patriarchy resists the and of course, wants to banish the strong feminine. There's a brilliant book that came out several years ago by one of the founders of chaos theory, a mathematician who teaches Santa Cruz University of Santa Cruz. I've done some, work with him and is on, it's called Gaia Eros and, Gaia Eros and, it's something else, but, he traces a history of patriarchy, and he points out that under the goddess times, one of the goddesses was chaos.

00:35:47:24 - 00:36:27:10

Matthew Fox

Chaos was honored as a goddess. But when patriarchy took over in around the fifth century, well, 5000 BC, this empire thing happened. And of course, cities happened because agriculture was was building up and all that. And the warrior thing happened. But what the important thing was, the myths were changed. No longer was chaos. A goddess. Now she was the enemy and it was the masculine rulers of these new kinds of communities that had to control the goddess chaos.

00:36:27:12 - 00:36:53:00

Matthew Fox

And he said, religion picked up on that and religion became patriarchal, and it had to control goddess and women because women represented, chaos, because a birthing was so chaotic and, and creativity to serve things. And he said this went on for centuries until the 18th century. Science said to religion, we're smarter than you guys. We'll take over and we'll start.

00:36:53:03 - 00:37:31:14

Matthew Fox

We'll control chaos. And so it did until the 1960s, when chaos theory came through in science. And this just flipped science. That whole wait a minute, nature itself has all this chaos going on, for example, the imperfection of the planets and their ellipses, or of course, the weather, that there's chaos built into all of nature. Now, we did a workshop, yeah, together at a UU church once he and I and, and he talked about chaos and science, and I talked about the via negativa in, in mysticism and, the darkness of the soul.

00:37:31:14 - 00:38:01:23

Matthew Fox

And that's our, our chaos. And, afterwards, a woman came up to me, she said, I'm a midwife. She said, nothing is more chaotic than birth. She said, there's blood all over the world, walls. It's a mess. But out of it. And she held their hands like this. Out of it comes this wonderful living being. And it just hit me so hard, so strong, that this is the basic battle going on in the mind of patriarchy is about control.

00:38:01:25 - 00:38:23:20

Matthew Fox

It's always about control. Look at these laws going on in Texas and everything in the Supreme Court about who's going to tell women what to do with their bodies. You know, it's where does this come from? This is where it comes from. That, patriarchy is built on dualism. It's built on control, is built on the reptilian brain.

00:38:23:22 - 00:38:52:10

Matthew Fox

And this is where contemplation, which gets us beyond the reptilian brain, is so important. It's a survival mechanism today. And of course, there's so many ways to meditate. And of course, some people find yoga useful and some tai chi and and, Chico and Zen and just sitting. I mean, there's so many ways to meditate, but we must meditate because we have to tame the reptilian brain because it's out of control.

00:38:52:10 - 00:39:16:25

Matthew Fox

I mean, just look around us running things. It's absolutely running things. January 6th. If that wasn't a movie about the reptilian brain at work, I don't know what it is. It's in live. It was in live color and half of our country is, well, a third of it is in denial about its being what, significant. And so those are a few thoughts about patriarchy.

00:39:17:02 - 00:39:56:19

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, I find that so. compelling. One of my favorite topics is is neuroscience and poly vagal theory. And that's like aligns completely with, you know, that reptilian brain and how important it is to know about your own biology that like that kind of left brained, more masculine side that wants to control things, takes over when you feel anxious, when you have a trauma trigger, when when things like that happen, which is exactly what you're trying to do in any contemplative practice, is basically make your insides, your whole nervous system, know that you are safe enough to settle into that chaotic space of darkness and like, just mystery, like unknowing.

00:39:56:19 - 00:40:09:07

Kelly Deutsch

You don't know what's there. But to know that you are safe and you're held and it's okay to relax into that, into your parasympathetic nervous system, which is much more of that feminine, receptive, relational part of ourselves.

00:40:09:07 - 00:40:30:16

Matthew Fox

And that's where peace is found. so much even in the midst of chaos, in the midst of disturbance, you know that. And that's why I think it's so valuable today. I'm so glad you're doing that work in the scientists who are doing that work. And of course, Einstein makes a point that the that values do not come from the rational brain.

00:40:30:16 - 00:41:10:09

Matthew Fox

He says values come from the intuitive brain. That's his name for the right brain. I call it the mystical brain. Simply. Yeah. But he says, and look at our education. He says, quote, this is Einstein. I abhor American education, unquote. Why does he say that? Because it only rewards you for the left brain work. You know, I mean, in in America, whether you're in grade school or high school or professional school, out goes out when there's a budget crunch, you see, and, as if art is some kind of cherry on the top or something, but art, in fact, is where all our values come from, and it's where we learn to play

00:41:10:12 - 00:41:39:19

Matthew Fox

and where we learn to imagine and and all this is the work of the, if you will, of the contemplative brain and what you're talking about there. And, so I think science there's one more example where science is an ally today with authentic, religious traditions. And by that I mean traditions that know their own tradition. You know, the Dalai Lama says the number one obstacle to interfaith is a bad relationship with one's own faith tradition.

00:41:39:21 - 00:42:20:24

Matthew Fox

And so if we don't even know our mystical tradition, which, as you point out, we rarely do, you know, we're not going to go anywhere in understanding the wisdom of, of Buddhism and, and the but this was so wonderful about great mystics in our time who were pioneers in deep humanism, like Thomas Merton or Father Bede Griffiths, who, of course, talks eloquently about the feminine side of our natures, which are so more developed and appreciated in the East than in the West, because the West had been so busy making empires and and killing the indigenous people, for example, in the name of Christ, I guess, the Discovery Doctrine, you know about that, that

00:42:20:24 - 00:42:58:10

Matthew Fox

horrible 15th century three bulls from two popes, which essentially gave Europeans the right to go to Africa and to the new worlds and, do whatever they want to do to the people there, because these people didn't know Christ. I mean, it's just appalling. And I think the Pope should take those documents and burn them in a public event in Saint Peter's Square, where he doesn't burn the original, they could put them under glass in a museum, but burn a Xerox copy, make a ritual of it right in a knowledge or Google what's at.

00:42:58:13 - 00:43:00:17

Kelly Deutsch

So in effigy.

00:43:00:19 - 00:43:03:00

Matthew Fox

This figure. Okay, yeah.

00:43:03:02 - 00:43:04:15

Kelly Deutsch

We've done enough of that in the past.

00:43:04:22 - 00:43:05:07

Matthew Fox

Yeah.

00:43:05:10 - 00:43:26:26

Kelly Deutsch

My goodness. Yeah. Gosh I feel like I have like 10 million questions that I want to ask you. And I know we only have a few minutes left. So in the future we'll have to ask. I'd love to ask more about Aquinas. And I know you're in, not too long. You'll be speaking about Julian in Norwich to to our, women Mystic school, which I'm very excited about.

00:43:26:29 - 00:43:27:04

Kelly Deutsch

I.

00:43:27:04 - 00:43:27:20

Matthew Fox

Do.

00:43:27:22 - 00:43:43:08

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. One thing, though, that I want to just touch on before, we close today is, I saw that your latest book is is more of an anthology, like put together by, Charles is his last name Barack?

00:43:43:10 - 00:43:44:06

Matthew Fox

Barack. Yeah.

00:43:44:08 - 00:44:07:21

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Which feature your essential writings. But it's being released as part of the Modern Spiritual Master series. And, well, first of all, congratulations on that. but secondly, I'm curious, looking back over your life and all you've gone through and all your writings and teachings and all of that, like, how does it how does it feel to be named a modern spiritual master?

00:44:07:24 - 00:44:38:19

Matthew Fox

Well, it's better than some names that I've. Scratched. It feels better than that. But, you know, I, I learned a long, long time ago. And Eckhart is a great teacher of this. not to be over, impressed by either insults or, praises. You know, just keep going and be as close to, your value system as you can.

00:44:38:19 - 00:45:01:15

Matthew Fox

Try to live a life of integrity and let the chips fall where they may. So, I just I would just put it in that category. It's a nice compliment. Compliments are nice, but I'm not attached to them. And, Or can I say projections? Negative projections aren't so nice, but I'm not a I tried not to be attached to them either, so.

00:45:01:17 - 00:45:02:22

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah, I'm.

00:45:02:22 - 00:45:03:24

Matthew Fox

In the same boat.

00:45:03:27 - 00:45:05:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, that's a wonderful thing to be.

00:45:05:13 - 00:45:28:21

Matthew Fox

But it is a nice crew to be with because they've done books on Manhattan, Gandhi and and, Richard Burr and and others. Flannery O'Connor, people who I admire very much. So I'm glad to be in that company. And and frankly, it's the first book by a Catholic publisher, in there to publish me in maybe 30 years or so.

00:45:28:21 - 00:45:29:02

Matthew Fox

So.

00:45:29:02 - 00:45:29:15

Kelly Deutsch

Wow.

00:45:29:15 - 00:46:00:07

Matthew Fox

Yeah, yeah, that was one of the the hard parts of the, the silencing and expelling of me, under Cardinal Ratzinger and the new inquisition that, the that you're excluded. Like I had people tell me these stories that I was, whatever. I was condemned or something. that Vance drove up to their church library and took out all my books and and and the same thing.

00:46:00:07 - 00:46:22:29

Matthew Fox

They did that at Catholic bookstores. It took out all my books. So, you know, that's been a consequence of, some of the abuse that I've undergone and, and 108 of the theologians who I name in my book on them called the books War because they, they did this something similar to 108 theologians around the world.

00:46:23:02 - 00:46:51:21

Matthew Fox

They killed theology. And that's a quote from a professor at my alma mater, the Institute Garlic, in Paris, there under Gpt2. And and then in a 16th they killed theology, certainly in Europe. Now they're wondering why no one's going to church in Europe. You know, there might be a connection. again, it's the control compulsion that, that burns heretics and,

00:46:51:24 - 00:46:57:05

Kelly Deutsch

Newness and difference is scary, dude. It's scary. Especially for a reptilian brains.

00:46:57:06 - 00:47:34:09

Matthew Fox

Well, exactly. And of course, now in our culture, we are whole schools that are throwing books. Books, good books, really good books. I want to throw books out of the children's libraries and stuff. You know, this is always part of fascism. Sorry. Fascism is kind of the control compulsion, in a, in this political expression. And, as is, of course, you know, right wing religion and, and so this control thing, once it is like going down a, you know, a hill, once it gets going, it really gets going in the culture.

00:47:34:11 - 00:47:56:00

Matthew Fox

So the idea that they want to throw Toni Morrison's books out of high school libraries is, is scary. And, you know, this is a big part of what went on in Germany in the 30s, too. Yeah. So, it's not unfamiliar. It's a deja vu. And we should we should be, aware of this and.

00:47:56:05 - 00:47:57:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Paying attention.

00:47:58:00 - 00:47:58:07

Matthew Fox

Yeah.

00:47:58:13 - 00:48:02:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, history definitely repeats itself. Let's first don't pay attention.

00:48:02:16 - 00:48:03:17

Matthew Fox

Exactly.

00:48:03:19 - 00:48:13:07

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Well, Matthew, if people want to learn more about your work or see all of your numerous books, what? Where's the best place for them to go?

00:48:13:09 - 00:48:29:06

Matthew Fox

Well, my web page is Matthew fox.org, and, I have a daily meditations with Matthew Fox, which is free and online. So you just go to that daily meditations with Matthew Fox and,

00:48:29:08 - 00:49:00:19

Matthew Fox

And just thinking, this week I've been writing about the Black Madonna. because a friend of mine just came out with a new book on the Black Madonna that, called God Is a Black Woman. Christine Cleveland, wonderful book. and, friend of mine came out last year with a book on the black men in which I wrote the Forward to Healing Journeys with the Black Madonna by Alessandra Belloni, who comes from southern Italy, where they still have a lot of the black Donna rituals going on and everything.

00:49:00:21 - 00:49:19:06

Matthew Fox

So, I mean, the Black Madonna is coming back today, and I mean, I hear a lot of people have told me their dreams. She's coming in their dreams. I've had experiences with her too, because she's so representative of what what we need to do for healing. First of all, she blacks. So the whole issue of racism is raised there.

00:49:19:06 - 00:49:43:06

Matthew Fox

And of course we all come from Africa. So the black mother is the grandmother of all of us, but also she's about the cosmos. She's a cosmic black mother, and, she's about grief and suffering, but also about celebration and disturbing. The peace also. So there's just a lot that she is an archetype about. And, you know, Jung says that archetypes return when we need them.

00:49:43:14 - 00:50:07:14

Matthew Fox

And I really think I think she's a very important archetype today. So, that's what I've been working on the last week or so, but I've also been working in the consciousness of the sacred masculine. We have this, this distorted masculine in this tantric masculinity, this patriarchy running the world. But there's a healthy masculine too, and we must clean that up with the healthy feminine.

00:50:07:16 - 00:50:34:29

Matthew Fox

And that's why the black banana's so important to that. She represents a healthy feminine. And Julian, who's the first to really develop in a richest way of all, the the idea of God as mother. And so that's all here too. So we have to clean up the masculine if you're going to survive as a species, and we have to assert the healthy feminine for the very same reasons and the values that can be found when they link up.

00:50:35:02 - 00:50:51:10

Matthew Fox

So one of the chapters, one of my books is on Marrying the Green Man, which is one of the archetypes and healthy masculine with the Black Madonna. We should have a ritual around that. That would be a new level of consciousness for when with sapiens, I think for our survival.

00:50:51:12 - 00:51:20:17

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, yeah, it is I, I mean, I feel like we could also talk about that for four hours to just the archetypes. And, I think there is such a surging interest in the sacred feminine. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about this. Women, mystics, you know, to be able to really affirm just both, both of light and the darkness of like, the feminine archetype, you know, both the nurturing, the gentle, the receptive, but also kind of that fierceness.

00:51:20:17 - 00:51:21:26

Matthew Fox

Fierce. Absolutely.

00:51:21:26 - 00:51:41:03

Kelly Deutsch

I yeah, it's incredible to see in so many like Hildegard. Whoa. Like, you know, so many of them were just so are, you know, Catherine of Siena. I mean, I think basically every female doctor of the church has, like, told the Pope what they think, you know, even even little Torres was like, I'm going to speak up, even if they tell me not to.

00:51:41:03 - 00:51:41:26

Kelly Deutsch

You know, I.

00:51:41:26 - 00:52:02:04

Matthew Fox

Think that's true. And Hildegard wrote letters to the Pope and to the emperor. So she told the emperor to man up and that that pay more attention to justice and other being like a baby. She said this to the emperor, whom she had met once, in fact. Yeah. So, anyway, yeah, these these women are are so important.

00:52:02:07 - 00:52:07:10

Matthew Fox

And they, they can help to empower women and healthy men today as well.

00:52:07:13 - 00:52:24:18

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, absolutely. If anyone listening wants to join us for the Women mystics, check out Women mystics.org and feel free to join us. Matthews live class will be on May 7th on Julian in Norwich, and I'm very excited to hear it. And anybody who wants to join us later, it'll be recorded too.

00:52:24:19 - 00:52:28:02

Matthew Fox

So that's great. Yeah. School like that. Yeah.

00:52:28:05 - 00:52:40:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for joining us today. I feel like I, I was scribbling notes as you were speaking, but I feel like I'm going to have to listen to this again because there's just so much in it. So thank you for sharing.

00:52:40:17 - 00:52:42:13

Matthew Fox

Okay, I hope I didn't talk too much.

00:52:42:13 - 00:52:43:29

Kelly Deutsch

No, it was wonderful.

00:52:43:29 - 00:52:45:28

Matthew Fox

Impressions are good and they got me going.

00:52:46:00 - 00:52:49:07

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, yeah I know we appreciate you joining us today. So thank you.