Mysticism & Longing - with Kelly Deutsch

In this episode, we turn the tables! Our guest host Karl Thienes puts Kelly in the hot seat to ask her all sorts of burning questions about interior life. Join us to discover: 🔸 What Kelly considers the best kept secret of Christianity 🔹 The role of suffering in the spiritual life 🔸 How we can use inner work to respond to fear (or anger, or judgment, or…) 🔹 What Kelly recommends as the best starting place for contemplative practice 🔸 Why the mystics say community life is critical - even the hermits! 🔹 What our deepest longings can reveal 🔸 The two defining qualities of the mystical life Join us for our first ever interview of Kelly!

Leave us a voicemail at https://www.spiritualwanderlust.org/ask for the chance to have your spiritual question answered live!

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:26:16

Kelly Deutsch

Hi everyone. Welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. I'm Kelly Deutsch and today we are going to do something a little different. Normally on our episodes I do most of the question asking. But today our frequent guest Carl Phenix has offered to interview me. So Carl is a fellow spiritual adventurer and also offers spiritual direction here at Spiritual Wanderlust.

00:00:26:19 - 00:00:39:05

Kelly Deutsch

So together we're going to discuss some of our favorite themes like mysticism, longing, contemplative practice, inner work, and everything in between. So Carl, thanks so much for joining us and for hosting us today.

00:00:39:08 - 00:00:56:06

Karl Thienes

Yeah, it's a pleasure being here with you, Kelly. and I, you know, these kinds of conversations are, very life giving to me. And I think it's important for people to be able to get together and to talk about, you know, their life at, you know, deep enough levels for it to really resonate with themselves and then with each other.

00:00:56:06 - 00:01:13:27

Karl Thienes

I think there's a lot of, communion that we can have together. when we talk about these kinds of topics. So, thanks for having me. Yeah. one question I guess I had is just right out of the gate, like, in your podcast series on mysticism, you had a really nice way of frame, kind of phrasing, kind of what it's about.

00:01:13:27 - 00:01:35:07

Karl Thienes

And you said that it's, the search for and the experience of divine union. and I like the fact that you broke those two pieces together, the searching, and the experience of. And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about, kind of what, that what divine union is maybe, first of all, and then second of all, what you were thinking of when you were thinking of both the searching and the experience pieces.

00:01:35:10 - 00:02:04:08

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Great questions. Writing. So I don't forget any piece of the divine union search and experience. so divine union is such a huge topic, right? And really, that's one of the motivating factors for having these conversations is I feel like it's this really well-kept secret of Christianity that this is like the whole point of the entire religion, but somehow it gets lost in translation.

00:02:04:08 - 00:02:19:22

Kelly Deutsch

And I'm like, who ever hears about that? Like, you know, whether it's in a Sunday pew or even just, you know, reading the Bible, they don't say it in those terms. You know, there are certainly places in Scripture that talk about like, Jesus and the father and I are one, and you are one in me, and I and you, you and me.

00:02:20:28 - 00:02:47:06

Kelly Deutsch

but what does that actually look like? Because as you grow deeper in, in prayer and in, this relationship with the divine, whether it is specifically through Christianity and through Jesus and, you know, that kind of traditional language or, you know, in a much more, kind of human sense of like connected with all that is, divine union is.

00:02:47:08 - 00:03:10:19

Kelly Deutsch

Willing what God wills, wanting what God wants, and being transformed in such a profound way that there almost seems to be no difference between you and the divine. And I think a lot of us intuit that naturally, like, I know that God is a part of me, I am a part of God, or God dwells in me.

00:03:10:22 - 00:03:33:02

Kelly Deutsch

But when we're so transformed that we think of, you know, amazing examples of that, whether it's like Nathan or Gandhi or Mother Teresa or, you know, any of these models that we hold up, we see how incredible their lives are because they've allowed themselves to be transformed so deeply. And I that's a very, insufficient answer to what divine union is.

00:03:33:02 - 00:03:50:15

Kelly Deutsch

But I hope that through our series of conversations that we get to dance around it a bit more, because that's that's one of the reasons why I think this has become such a well-kept secret, is because it's so ineffable. And the saints who do experience it, the people who come back.

00:03:50:18 - 00:04:11:00

Kelly Deutsch

They don't know how to speak about it either. You know, they write poetry or music or try to paint a painting. you know, Thomas Aquinas who wrote Tongues and Tones and Tones of theology at the end of his life, was purported to say like, it's all straw, you know, he wanted to burn everything he had written because he's like, what do all these words have to do with this reality?

00:04:11:00 - 00:04:36:14

Kelly Deutsch

I just experienced? So I suppose that's, you know, what leads us into that definition of, of mysticism as the search for and experience of divine union, because it's, it's this dynamic of the already but not yet like we taste it like, oh my gosh, what was that? And so then it sets off this longing for so much more.

00:04:36:27 - 00:04:55:07

Kelly Deutsch

and so that in and of itself is already part of the mystical path. It's not like we have to go. I think a lot of people have this misconception that mysticism or divine union is like just all ecstasies, you know, like I'm levitating, like Teresa of Avila or some of the other, you know, saints and mystics. And that certainly can be.

00:04:55:07 - 00:05:17:02

Kelly Deutsch

But any of those mystics themselves would say, like, that's not the important stuff. Like, don't pay attention to that. Like real holiness or union with God is doing God's will. So what does that look like in your daily life? It can be in the normal humdrum. I mean, we were just talking about I've been dealing with some illness and that's that's part of divine union, too.

00:05:17:02 - 00:05:38:16

Kelly Deutsch

Just saying yes to whatever is being plopped in your lap. Like, okay, I have been in bed for a whole week. Part of me gets really pissed about that. And then I have to go back into like, okay, this is what I'm being given. This is my invitation to divine union right now, saying yes to however God is showing up in my life.

00:05:38:19 - 00:06:06:12

Kelly Deutsch

So search for I'm longing for that all the time. I think a lot of us have had that, first light us up. and then we also have those experiences of it where either in that wonderful, beatific, blissful sense of we feel so close to God and in union and oneness with all things. Or it can also be in, in the difficult it's in the crucifixion, the suffering.

00:06:06:19 - 00:06:09:00

Kelly Deutsch

And I know we'll get into that more later as well.

00:06:09:02 - 00:06:31:22

Karl Thienes

Yeah. Know for sure. Yeah. And I maybe that's one of the benefits of kind of the mystical life. Right. Is that it sounds so, you know, otherworldly or kind of unattainable or strange, but the way you're describing it, right, it's and it's in everything. Right? It's in the joy and the wonder that we have when we're playing with our children, or we're looking at a sunset, or we're captivated by a particular, you know, beautiful piece of music, for example.

00:06:31:24 - 00:06:53:03

Karl Thienes

But it's also in the dark arts. and, so, yeah, I mean, that sense of accepting the suffering of our life. tell me a little bit more maybe about kind of what you're seeing in that space in terms of, you know, suffering. Right? I think suffering is such a hard topic. I think in particularly in Christian circles, it's not always, you know, strangely.

00:06:53:03 - 00:07:14:21

Karl Thienes

Right. We are. I mean, from a Christian point of view, our savior accepted suffering, right? and suffering was, was something that he redeemed. And so the fact that we don't always talk about that as a pathway to divine union is, is kind of paradoxically shocking and in a certain kind of way, right where our faith is not just, an ever progressive kind of, evolution and positive sort of experience.

00:07:14:21 - 00:07:31:16

Karl Thienes

Right? It, it it requires us to, you know, to fall down and then to get back up, and to, to accept, right, the, the brokenness of our life the way it is because. Right. Clearly, I mean, things are not the way any of us would really want them. and there's always things that to be improved.

00:07:31:16 - 00:07:49:29

Karl Thienes

And so to live in that ambiguity, I think, and to me in some ways is the mystical life. Maybe. So I'm curious, one of the things I think you talked about in your mysticism series two was, was detachment. And I wanted to hear a little bit more about kind of, how your thinking of that word and how does that play into the mystical life.

00:07:51:23 - 00:08:00:14

Kelly Deutsch

So much there. Let me start with that a moment.

00:08:02:21 - 00:08:18:05

Kelly Deutsch

let me start with just a note on suffering. since you brought that up. And I feel like that's such a huge question and something we can certainly get more in depth into later as well.

00:08:18:08 - 00:09:03:20

Kelly Deutsch

There are so many mystics who talk about the cross as their wedding bed, which sounds pretty mind blowing. Like, what in the world does that even mean? But when we recognize that holiness union, whatever word you want to use is saying yes to whatever God is giving you. And that I love talking about. I did in that series as well, talking about, the contemplative stances like that Fiat or that Mary and stance that, that Mary took of saying, yes, whatever, whatever you send me and that that really is, as you were saying, like that's part of living in the ambiguity and that's part of detachment as well as being able to go from like

00:09:03:20 - 00:09:36:21

Kelly Deutsch

this clenching, grasping kind of gesture into something that is much more open palmed before reality and says. Okay, yes to this as well, even though it might be really uncomfortable, you know, and even just the small inconveniences, being able to say like, yes to those whatever, getting stuck in traffic on my way to Portland, high traffic, you know, instead of like, catching myself in that response and saying like, okay, can I just notice that I have volcanoes all around me right now?

00:09:36:25 - 00:10:06:12

Kelly Deutsch

You know, this is mind blowing. so it's like in the little things, but also those big things, whether it's health or losing a loved one or just life being turned upside down by the pandemic and all of these things, these are the things that really stretch us. And so that's one of the ways that that, you know, in the Christian AEsir, tradition, you know, calling that key gnosis, it's key gnosis leads to the oasis, right?

00:10:06:12 - 00:10:26:26

Kelly Deutsch

That's kind of our core thesis here is that that crucifixion leads to resurrection and transformation. So all of that suffering can be a really good and beautiful thing when we allow it to not just break us apart, but break us open into this kind of open handed stance.

00:10:26:29 - 00:10:44:02

Karl Thienes

Yeah, that's a beautiful word. But in a not a part but open. Right? Vulnerable. one of the things I remember, I think it was either in your book or any one of your podcasts, you talked about, using surfing as an analogy. Right, for accepting like when in terms of accepting, right your life as it comes to you.

00:10:44:09 - 00:11:09:15

Karl Thienes

because. Right. you know, from a, an addiction recovery perspective. Right? We talk about, the, you know, you have to accept things, right? As they are accepting life on life's terms. and that's extraordinarily difficult thing to do for most people. And I think in some ways, maybe the mystical life is, is learning how to do that, with ever, you know, deeper levels of grace and forgiveness, not only for yourself but for the people around you.

00:11:09:15 - 00:11:27:19

Karl Thienes

And, when you brought up surfing in that context, I, was reminded of C.S. Lewis in the book Carol Andrea, right, where he talks about the lady in the book, talks about how right she's learned to accept, the waves that have that come to her. Right, and that to that whether to drown in them or whether to rise above them is is a delight either way.

00:11:27:21 - 00:11:44:17

Karl Thienes

And so to have that, detachment right from the, from the outcome, not wanting the wave to do any particular thing other than to be itself, you know, in the story at least gives her the freedom right to be herself in it. and it also reminded me a little bit of like, I think it's all media where it talks about, like, your waves have washed over me.

00:11:44:17 - 00:12:04:05

Karl Thienes

Right? and that ties into suffering, too, right? Because the waves of our life sometimes are buoyant and beautiful and. Right. And they they're beautiful, but often they're, you know, tumultuous and full fulfilled with all kinds of things that are scary, you know? so that kind of leads me into another question. I wanted to, ask you a little bit about fear.

00:12:04:17 - 00:12:21:09

Karl Thienes

partly because it's something that I've, you know, struggled with, in my life, in sobriety and just in the spiritual life of just as you unpack, right, the things in your life that are getting in the way of you being your best self, and it being open to, to, you know, divine union. There's so much fear in us, right?

00:12:21:10 - 00:12:34:01

Karl Thienes

Fear of, the things that we know we should do or think we should do. The fear of other people, the fear of our circumstances. and I wanted to hear a little bit kind of, of how fear fits into the mystical life.

00:12:36:09 - 00:12:40:20

Kelly Deutsch

That's a good question.

00:12:40:23 - 00:12:54:26

Kelly Deutsch

What immediately comes to mind for me is just how our interior lights works. And I love using this framework. I, I have we talked before about ifs internal family systems, I can't.

00:12:54:26 - 00:12:57:07

Karl Thienes

Remember I think so I love.

00:12:57:09 - 00:13:21:10

Kelly Deutsch

Amazon so good. I really love using that as a model of the interior life because it in the bare essence of things, it just says we have a multiplicity of parts inside of us. You know, you can think of it as like we have all nine types on the Enneagram, we have all these archetypes, we have all, you know, we all have like, we have our people pleasing part, and we have our inner critic and we have like our nurturing, caring part.

00:13:21:10 - 00:13:46:24

Kelly Deutsch

And, you know, we all have these various parts, but we develop them, you know, as a way to adapt and cope with life like both a good and bad. And for me, being able to dialog with each of those parts and seeing why sometimes I get turned up so loud, you know, like if you want to use the Enneagram, for example, a lot of us will say women in particular, but a lot of us in general.

00:13:46:24 - 00:14:05:29

Kelly Deutsch

I think, have trouble having a healthy eight kind of part, you know, part that is assertive and can stand up for ourselves and do what is right and things. if an eight part gets turned up too loud, you know, it can like rage and be like really just obstinate in your face. And it can be really obnoxious.

00:14:06:01 - 00:14:37:28

Kelly Deutsch

But a really healthy eight part actually is really important to be able to set healthy boundaries and just say like, well, this is just what we gotta do, folks. so for me, I know this is kind of a long roundabout way of answering the question, but for me, it's looking at these various tendencies we have, whether it's like my eight part explodes or I have like a two ish part that is so people pleasing and just can't stand up for myself or, you know, whatever it is to be able to dialog with each of those parts of me and say, like, what are you really afraid of under there?

00:14:38:01 - 00:15:05:21

Kelly Deutsch

Like, what are you afraid is going to happen if you don't please these people? Or if you don't use this method of like exploding and raging against the night or against whatever it is, you know, that, feels like it's such a crazy injustice, you know, what might be another tool. And so for me, fear is. Fear is something that we all have because, I mean, we live in a very, imperfect world.

00:15:05:21 - 00:15:30:18

Kelly Deutsch

And so there are going to be things that, trigger us, hurt us, wound us, traumatized us, and finding ways to engage with those parts of us and not disown them and say like, no, I can't rage, but say like, okay, I see this is part of me. I mean, it's all like doing shadow work, right? Being able to recognize these parts like that is me too.

00:15:30:20 - 00:16:09:16

Kelly Deutsch

Like I can look around and say, everything that is human is not alien to me. It's a paraphrase of Terrence, I believe, you know, to be able to recognize, you know, a serial killer or, you know, the president that I don't particularly like at any given point in time or, you know, whatever Putin, whoever it is to be able to say, like there but for the grace of God go I like I am capable of all things that are human, both the negative, the dark and the light, and I think it's important to be able to bring all of those home to ourselves, both so we can have compassion for ourselves and work through

00:16:09:16 - 00:16:22:25

Kelly Deutsch

those parts of us that have such fear, which leads to the extreme behaviors. But also I have such more compassion for those around us. And you know why others are doing things that seem so incomprehensible to us right?

00:16:23:02 - 00:16:46:21

Karl Thienes

Yeah. For sure. you mentioned tools. and I was thinking too, that I think, you know, it's hard. I think, too, when you think about, like, mysticism or the mystical life or the contemplative life, or even just the spiritual life in many ways, it's hard to, to put a boundary around what that even is. And so, you know, I think you had mentioned at one point talking about, finding your practice.

00:16:46:24 - 00:17:00:27

Karl Thienes

Right. And so I was curious, like, if you could talk a little bit maybe about what some of the maybe some of your practices, but just in general, you know, somebody was going to ask, you know, how do I get started or what should I do. Right. And we tend to be a very pragmatic culture. And we like we like checklists.

00:17:00:27 - 00:17:15:18

Karl Thienes

And learning how to divest yourself of the addiction to those is part of the mystical life. But, you know, you get there eventually, right? Right. But it's I think, but but in a more serious way, it's also nice to have. Right. It's that you have to have a sense of grounding, partly because we're embodied creatures, right? And we live in the world, and we have to.

00:17:15:18 - 00:17:34:09

Karl Thienes

And if we're going to be present to it, it means we have to be here. and so the ways in which we can be present, I think, take form. Right. And very specific practices, whether those are, you know, prayer or services or whatever. So I was curious if you could talk a little bit about maybe practices that you've done that seem to help, maybe practices that have worked for a while and maybe didn't?

00:17:34:17 - 00:17:38:20

Karl Thienes

and just in general kind of how that, how that evolves over time as you're leaning into this.

00:17:38:22 - 00:18:07:12

Kelly Deutsch

Sure. Absolutely. So, one of my favorite spiritual directors that I ever had, I might have said this in the videos before. he told me the best prayer is the prayer you can pray, and I love that. So, so when people ask me, you know, like, where should I get started, you know, or, or oftentimes people will come to spiritual direction and feel really anxious that they can't meditate or, you know, do centering prayer or like, I'm trying to do my two 20 minute sets every day and I just can't get myself to calm down.

00:18:07:12 - 00:18:31:15

Kelly Deutsch

I'm like, okay, okay, let's take a step back, take a breath. Where do you feel most connected to God? Where do you feel most grounded? That's where I always recommend people begin, like take a moment to consider that, like, is it having your coffee quietly in the morning? Is it taking a walk on the trail somewhere? Is it.

00:18:31:17 - 00:18:57:26

Kelly Deutsch

You know, I have one woman who loves horseback riding. That's like her thing. and that's wonderful. Like, any of those things can be spiritual practices when they connect you to the divine. I think the key in any of those, it's been having the, again, that stance, that kind of Marian stance and that enough stillness so that you can notice when the spirit starts to tug you deeper.

00:18:57:28 - 00:19:23:09

Kelly Deutsch

I think that's really that key. And it's so, so subtle at first. You know, that transition from meditation into contemplation. It's one in traditional Christian spiritual theology. Anyway. meditation being much more of like a mental practice or something that you do like. I'm going to whether it's Lexi or Divina, and that's something that I loved for a while.

00:19:23:09 - 00:19:44:01

Kelly Deutsch

I would just devour scripture, you know, like, I just love to meditate or sometimes, you know, just like a good spiritual reading. I, for example, there's this one book that I recommend to people frequently, John of the cross, named Impact of God by Ian Matthews. And I remember the first time, one of the sisters in the community that I was in recommended it to me.

00:19:44:03 - 00:20:19:28

Kelly Deutsch

I picked it up and, like, didn't really do anything for me the second time that I picked it up, like a year later, I prayed with a table of contents for a week. So it was just those words alone. I was like, oh, oh, okay, just, oh, I just need to stop and stay right here. And that to me, whatever that your practices, whether it's walking out in nature or having your morning cup of coffee or just sitting and listening to music to attend to those inner movements, whenever you feel a slight tug and then just stop and stay.

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:39:01

Kelly Deutsch

And it could be, you know, it might be 30s and you're like, okay, I'm going to move on again and play the music or, you know, whatever it is. Or it could be, you know, the rest of your half hour sit, you know, I mean, it's not up to us. Again, that's that surfing analogy. We're not we're not in charge of how big these waves are, whether or not they come.

00:20:39:03 - 00:21:02:12

Kelly Deutsch

But we're we're in charge of is just being attentive, like, oh, I can feel the swell. I better start pedaling. Right. See how long I can ride this. so that we can have that same, receptivity and, sensitivity in a sense, to, to divine movements. And so I've, I've used a wide variety of spiritual practices in my lifetime.

00:21:03:04 - 00:21:23:13

Kelly Deutsch

as you kind of insinuated there, there are definitely, chapters where some work really well. And then after a while, it's like, it doesn't do anything for me anymore. I used to love the rosary. Oh, man. Like, just I would do laps around that saying, you know, meditating on the life of Christ. Or sometimes I'd like just insert my own kind of mysteries of the rosary.

00:21:24:21 - 00:21:50:04

Kelly Deutsch

or. Yeah. When I was ill, one of my, good monk friends made me a, a track key, like. And just another kind of prayer rope. And that I felt like, was what was like pulling me out of the pit of despair, holding on for dear life, you know, so those have been helpful practices. Now I feel like any, any words don't really do a whole lot for me.

00:21:50:04 - 00:22:19:18

Kelly Deutsch

I just want to sit in silence, you know, and so I might lie in the grass and soak up the sky or spend the first 20 minutes when I wake up in the morning just being still, lying in my bed, even just like sitting with my cat, just being, you know, my, my daily nap, you know, is when I described it to someone, you know, it's like I always actually fall asleep, but it's just, you know, time enough for my body to kind of just exhale, choose.

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:38:09

Kelly Deutsch

Like so. You mean meditation? Is that what you're actually doing? well, I suppose I, I tend not to use the word meditation because I think a lot of people, you know, think of a very specific thing, like, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to pay attention to my breath, not going to try to let go of all my thoughts, let go.

00:22:38:11 - 00:22:55:07

Kelly Deutsch

But it's there so much like crying. Yeah, it there's still yeah, it's kind of that whole paradigm of, you know, trying to make your ego defeat your own ego or something. so yeah, it's much easier for me to just, have a time to just be.

00:22:55:09 - 00:23:14:29

Karl Thienes

Yeah. Yeah. I know for me, you know, in, in the recovery movement, right, there's a very big emphasis on developing new practices and new habits. right. To start to rebuild the life that in many ways, you've destroyed by your addiction. right. And so you have to relearn a lot of patterns of just how to function in the world.

00:23:14:29 - 00:23:38:28

Karl Thienes

Right? Without the crutch, of your addiction. and one of the things that that I've personally found and I think this is, you know, pretty. Yeah. Fairly true for, for most people in that scenario is that, it's difficult to do that without a community or without. Right, a larger group of people, which and again, in a strange, paradoxical kind of way, is it when most if you ask most people, what do you think of when you hear the, the mystical life or mysticism?

00:23:39:00 - 00:24:04:15

Karl Thienes

Right. To your point, right. There's this idea that it's just you in a room silently meditating or or doing something quiet right by yourself. There's a very individual kind of nature to that, but that doesn't seem to be true at all. If you read The Lives of the Saints or, you know, or a really have anybody. Right, who has achieved some level of spiritual maturity is that, yes, they may live their life and have practices, right, that are very, you know, solitary maybe, let's say, but but they're not they're not disconnected from anyone.

00:24:04:15 - 00:24:26:21

Karl Thienes

And in fact, right. Those practices may in fact, you know, make them more connected to people, at a much deeper level. But then even practically again, right, having a community of people around you, and whether, again, whether that's a church or a right or whatever, right there, it's almost like it's an essential element of what it means to be, somebody who's it wants to live a mystical life is, again, you need people around you.

00:24:26:21 - 00:24:43:20

Karl Thienes

So I was curious, you know, you've lived in you've been anon and you've lived in a convent and you know, you know, you're recently married and. Right. You've had a number of different kind of, living arrangements and different structures in your life. And I was curious if you could, share maybe a little bit about what you've learned, maybe in communities, as it relates to the mystical life.

00:24:45:09 - 00:25:09:12

Kelly Deutsch

Great question. community living I find and I, I'm pretty sure this is why, you know, a lot of mystics and the church itself teaches this is such an important part of the spiritual life, community life is really where you learn virtue and that's where the rubber hits the road. So you might have these wonderful ecstatic experiences in prayer.

00:25:09:12 - 00:25:33:21

Kelly Deutsch

But if you walk out, you know, or like your son interrupts you and you're like, shut up and meditate. You know, oh, yeah, there's some sort of disconnects there, like, okay, if I am not becoming a more patient, kind, compassionate, all embracing and welcoming and hospitable and and also courageous and bold or, you know, like, if I'm not growing in virtue, then I'm not growing in holiness.

00:25:33:21 - 00:26:01:05

Kelly Deutsch

I'm not becoming a more spiritually mature person. And so community is really where all of that gets hammered out because, I mean, one of my close friends is like, Kelly, you know, I used to believe I was so holy. And then I got married and had kids. It's like, oh, man, you know, I am just constantly failing. And that's, you know, kind of looping back to what we were talking about before the suffering, the failures.

00:26:01:05 - 00:26:32:12

Kelly Deutsch

Those are so much aware all of this spiritual life is hashed out is in all of the difficulties in the day to day. kind of sandpaper of our lives. That isn't always very comfortable. when you just have difficult personalities or you're tired, everybody's tired, kids are tired, your spouse is tired, and, you know, even in the convent, you know, it's very easy for people to think like, oh, well, monks and nuns, you know, I mean, they've dedicated their whole lives to prayer.

00:26:32:12 - 00:26:56:22

Kelly Deutsch

So clearly, you know, they must all be very holy and like, no, no, my words so very human, you know, and it there was there's so much dysfunction and monasteries and dominance, you know, they might not air their dirty laundry out into the public, nor is it always appropriate. But, you know, they're still very human. We all bring our baggage with us.

00:26:56:24 - 00:27:19:15

Kelly Deutsch

And so using those opportunities, Just the image that comes to mind was, me in Rome. And I remember I was talking to a friend of mine who was in another community, and I was venting about one of my sisters, and like, sister so-and-so said this to me, and then she said, can you believe? And I was just like, venting and fuming.

00:27:19:17 - 00:27:44:09

Kelly Deutsch

And this other friend of mine turned to me and she's like, what about you get so riled up by that? I was like, I was so taken aback. You know, it's just like, excuse me, can't you see how obnoxious she was being, you know? But I mean, essentially she was saying, like, Kelly, it takes two to tango, you know, like, yes, that she did something, but like, why is it eliciting such a strong response in you?

00:27:44:10 - 00:28:02:04

Kelly Deutsch

What in you is happening? And, you know, that goes back to that, that effect, that parts were what is being triggered in me. Okay. So I feel outraged. Why? What is this part trying to tell me? What's it trying to protect me from, you know, and just doing a little more of that digging and spiraling down under here.

00:28:02:06 - 00:28:27:29

Kelly Deutsch

And so community life provides a marvelous opportunity for that, which is one of the reasons why it's so good to be surrounded by people who aren't exactly like you, you know, which is what most like church or even support group, any kind of situation is that these are like, I can't remember if it was some author, like maybe it was Graham Greene, someone who said, Catholicism is here comes everyone.

00:28:28:03 - 00:28:58:18

Kelly Deutsch

Oh yeah. Right. I love that definitely. It's like, oh yeah, we got everybody here like we're all broken in our various ways, glorious on our various ways. But you throw us all together and understandably, our jagged edges are going to catch on each other. So to me, that's one of the biggest roles of community life and and also one of the greatest gifts, because you get to learn from each other in places that, aren't your natural strengths.

00:28:58:21 - 00:29:20:00

Karl Thienes

Right? For sure. Yeah. so that leads me actually to another question. when we talk about, like, being a community and, and learning from one another, you know, this is something that people like Brené Brown and other people talk about. It's the, like the central importance of curiosity, right, in the vulnerable life or the mystical life, even the spiritual life.

00:29:21:02 - 00:29:36:07

Karl Thienes

and, you know, I think one of the things that I've noticed and just in my life and I think in, you know, the people around me and just, I think in society, right, is that and whether it's smartphones or whether it's just the state of the world or whatever, it's hard to know, even really there's so many factors.

00:29:36:07 - 00:29:54:29

Karl Thienes

But being curious about other people, right. And whether it's doing work like ifs, or just inner work in general, right. If you're going to be in a state where you're open and accepting of life as it comes to you, that takes a certain like, right? Like an your aperture, the aperture of your soul has to be open.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:11:08

Karl Thienes

Right. And that that's a courageous stance to, to do that. Right. So to invite the world in, it's like the cross a century. Right? You're you're basically here in this moment, right? Horizontal and vertical. You're connected to reality and you're and you're looking up to God and you're, you're looking for that divine union. Right? But to do that takes a certain level of openness.

00:30:11:08 - 00:30:32:17

Karl Thienes

And, you know, cultivating that kind of curiosity feels like, because in many cases can be a so a real suffering right, is to be that, that open, and I know that, you know, some of the work that I've done in, in recovery and working with addicts and, and just in general is that, that's almost impossible to do, without a guide or without help.

00:30:32:20 - 00:30:55:26

Karl Thienes

And again, right, the community that you live in, whether that's a marriage or a convent or just right, your church or whatever, right, that's absolutely essential and can provide some of that. Right. But there seems to be also the need to have some more of a, like a deeper, you know, somebody who soul walks with you right through your life who can help point out, areas where, you know, it's very easy to walk off the edge of the cliff as you do this work.

00:30:56:11 - 00:31:14:28

Karl Thienes

and actually, that reminds me, there's a quote from, Saint Isaac the Syrian, an eastern, saint who, said that if you're going and this is a paraphrase and obviously a translation, it'd be interesting to know what it was in the original. But, he said something along the lines. I figure if you're going to do if you're going to walk the spiritual path, if you're going to do the spiritual life, then you need to be prepared for the stench.

00:31:15:00 - 00:31:35:10

Karl Thienes

Right? And the idea is that that right, as you excavate the things that are getting in the way, of that being able to be filled with wonder or being able to accept the sufferings of your life that that you're going to come up with, right? A whole host of different, you know, sub personalities or, or just like the broken edges of your soul that are going to, like, you know, great at you as you do that.

00:31:35:12 - 00:31:57:07

Karl Thienes

So this is a long winded question, I guess, but, I'm I'm curious. I have found a lot of benefit personally in terms of having, let's say, an, a sponsor, or a spiritual father or a spiritual director or all three, sometimes at the same time. Right. It takes a community, sometimes of guides to really help you. and, you know, I think that's, it's hard for us, I think, sometimes to accept that, that that we need that.

00:31:57:07 - 00:32:08:27

Karl Thienes

Right. And also to trust people enough to, to and invite them in. so I was curious what your experience has been or what you would say in terms of the necessity of guides in the spiritual life or in the mystical life?

00:32:09:00 - 00:32:29:25

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. First of all, great quote, I love that. Yep. There's a lot of stench inside. for all of us, you know, I mean, it's regardless of who we are, we all have have some dark areas that haven't been turned over in a while. but yeah, I find it absolutely critical to have somebody to hold your hand.

00:32:29:28 - 00:32:59:08

Kelly Deutsch

And what I find interesting is how, there are different people who feel appropriate at different stages in life. And I'm guessing you've experienced this as well, whether it's, you know, a different sponsor or therapist, spiritual guide, whoever it is that are meant to walk with you for certain stages, and then, you know, whether it's through life circumstance or it's just, you know, I had one sister that I worked with for a few years, and she was like, I feel like I've come to the end of what I can walk with you on.

00:32:59:08 - 00:33:27:22

Kelly Deutsch

I'm like, okay, well, you know, thank you for being honest. Like, all right. but I find it so helpful in pointing out a lot of those blind spots or some of those dark areas and say that you kind of forgot existed, you know, so they might be able to walk in. And it kind of reminds me of, like when you walk into your grandparents house and there's like a little bit of that weird sour smell, you know, and like, they've been living there so long they don't even notice it anymore.

00:33:27:22 - 00:33:45:29

Kelly Deutsch

But you walk in, you're like, oh, that's a little far off. Like, I don't know if something needs cleaning or, you know, check something out. I feel like that's almost what, you know, a good spiritual director or companion or guide does is walks in and just kind of gotten used to that stance with somebody walks in, it's like, that's a little off.

00:33:45:29 - 00:34:24:00

Kelly Deutsch

Like, should we go excavating a little bit? And we're like, no, I don't smell anything. I think we're fine. Don't worry about it. but there have been plenty of times, whether a therapist or a spiritual director or coach has, you know, pointed something out or asks the tough question that I really needed to hear but maybe didn't want to, you know, I, I can think of one example, when my spiritual director in Rome, I had just, I think it was also at this around the same time that I was introduced to the Enneagram and, at the time I tested, I came out as a two because I was formed to

00:34:24:00 - 00:34:45:02

Kelly Deutsch

be a two in Rome. Because. Isn't that every good nun? and and there's a lot I certainly have plenty of to which energy. But I remember, my spiritual director asking me, something about, like, this desire to serve other people, you know, and it felt like it came out of a very genuine place. And he's like, do you think there's anything self-serving in that?

00:34:45:02 - 00:35:06:09

Kelly Deutsch

Like, do you get anything out of serving other people? I remember being taken a little back, like, oh, I mean, I don't I don't think so. Like, I think it's just a genuine, like, you know, desire to give back him, you know? And I was like, no, he was like, okay, now you just left it at that.

00:35:06:09 - 00:35:31:06

Kelly Deutsch

And it took me a good six months to come back and be like, oh yeah, no, I, I definitely get something out of that. It makes me feel like a good person. Like, if I can't do that, like, something in my ego is like, oh my gosh, am I good? Like, but I, you know, it's questions like that that we sometimes need others to posit for us because they don't occur to us ourselves.

00:35:31:08 - 00:35:45:12

Kelly Deutsch

So having someone on the outside who can, who could smell those smells and point things out and see things that we can't see, can be absolutely invaluable in your own growth and development.

00:35:45:15 - 00:36:05:25

Karl Thienes

Yeah. Although you have to want the answer, you know, to your point, right? Sometimes you're not ready to hear the answer or you hear it, but only on a certain level of consciousness. you know, and then these truths that, that we're searching for, right. Or the longing that we talk about in the mystical life, it can never be fulfilled if what we're really after is, is the divine right, because by definition, the divine is infinite.

00:36:06:23 - 00:36:25:01

Karl Thienes

and so we're, we're like. And that goes back to you what your, your first definition in terms of the search and the experience kind of that dance between the, the here but not yet. right. And, and sometimes, you know, sometimes explanations don't help or all people can do is point you. You know, I was thinking of like Philip in this annual, you know, how can anything good come out of Nazareth?

00:36:25:01 - 00:36:45:02

Karl Thienes

And his response is, look, I'm not going to explain this to you, right? Just come and see. Right. And so that invitation right to join, right to be a participant in again, going back to that experience thing, is just so invaluable. But but but it's hard, I think sometimes when, we're dancing in between the wanting to fulfill our longings, but we're also, again, going back to fear.

00:36:45:02 - 00:37:04:10

Karl Thienes

We're afraid of what that would either cost us. Right. or maybe even a little bit of a doubt that we'll get what we want. And then. And then it would be like. Now what? Right. and so it's, again, it's that strange relationship that we have with God where he's always wooing us forward, you know, and giving us a little foretaste that we can bear.

00:37:04:14 - 00:37:20:14

Karl Thienes

Right. and I think for me, I think one of the things I was saying about the mystical life is that, again, it's like that sense of openness. Right? That we're containers, we're earth and vessels, right? As Saint Paul says. And we're we're we're never we can't contain, right. The grace that God has by nature. But we can definitely participate in it.

00:37:20:29 - 00:37:38:28

Karl Thienes

but we have to be willing right to, to allow our container to be big enough so that. Right, so that what we want or that longing or that desire that we have, can at least have some sense of consummation or fulfillment. and so, yeah, I was the other thing I was thinking, too, is that the Greek word characterizes the circle dance, right?

00:37:38:28 - 00:37:54:23

Karl Thienes

With some of the church Fathers. That was a way of describing the Trinity. Right. And so, again, it's that sense of, and when we're talking about the mystical life, either in your on your own, you know, doing your own work or in a community or with a guy who's helping you in all of those cases. Right. There's that dance of, again, right.

00:37:54:23 - 00:38:10:04

Karl Thienes

We're drilling deeper and deeper, and we're giving more and more of ourselves where we're able to hear the truths of the people around us who are saying things. And I think it was was it Dostoyevsky or Nietzsche? I can't remember. One of them said something along the lines of that, you can tell the character of a man by how much truth he's willing to tolerate.

00:38:11:03 - 00:38:33:20

Karl Thienes

Right. And and I saw a lot about that quote being a real, like a real distillation, essentially, of the mystical life. right. That there's always more truths and most of them are exceptionally painful, right, to actually really take in, but again, one in wanting that, that sense of desire. so and so I guess that leads me to a question, from a like a longing perspective.

00:38:34:06 - 00:38:55:01

Karl Thienes

Lord, I believe that. Help my unbelief. Right. How do we, how do we accept, let's say, the fact that our longing and our desire is either misplaced or not as high or it's not maybe what it should be, or it could be, but also doing things to keep it moving. Right. And I think, again, like, you can get stuck and again, from an addiction point of view, right?

00:38:55:04 - 00:39:19:09

Karl Thienes

Having desires and longings that you're not addressing. Right, have have ways of leaking out into your life, right. So that you're then attracted to idols or you're attracted ideologies or substances or anything, right, that can fulfill that longing. but you don't want to kill that part of you either, you know? And I see that a lot in addiction work where there's a temptation, especially early on, to just crush the desiring aspect of the soul that that was looking for a thing, looking for God in places that shouldn't.

00:39:19:09 - 00:39:36:20

Karl Thienes

Right. and so and that's what we would call like a dry drunk, right? That's that's what you just you amputate essentially a part of yourself. And sometimes that's necessary, maybe in very dire, you know, scenarios. but, anyway, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on desire, maybe, and how we work for that.

00:39:36:22 - 00:40:02:21

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Longing is hard because it is like, it's just this it's like exquisite and wonderful, but also like, exquisitely painful at the same time. And it is so hard to sit in, you know, and I think that's, you know, why you have so many poets from every world religion that talks about getting drunk on love and this kind of and like drunk on Eros in particular.

00:40:02:26 - 00:40:32:01

Kelly Deutsch

Like that's how I like to talk about longing. Is this this Eros is like a cipher. It's like what moves stars in the heavens and understandably, when you have that kind of jet fuel, like inside of your very soul, no wonder it's so potent, you know, and it's so difficult to, like, I don't know, it's it's like being in a car, like you're in a race car and somebody is revving the engine but hasn't thrown in the clutch yet, you know, and you're like, oh, my God.

00:40:32:01 - 00:41:03:03

Kelly Deutsch

It's it's just so potent that we don't. We're like, I think I might die if I don't have some sort of like release outlet for this I don't like, what do I do with this? And so I think it is very easy to to turn that toward created things, as Augustine would talk about, like whatever those things are, I mean, and it can be your typical addictions, you know, that we're used to thinking of like, okay, drugs and alcohol and pornography and whatever, but it's so easily other things, like how many of us are addicted to control?

00:41:03:06 - 00:41:26:23

Kelly Deutsch

I think 100%, you know, I mean, like, I think, yeah, it's so easy to I mean, when things feel out of control, that's the one thing we want to do is like grasp some sort of control. And, you know, even if it's just like, I need to clean my house and organize everything or I need to, you know, start bossing my kids around more than maybe is really necessary or or my spouse or, you know, take control of things at work.

00:41:28:07 - 00:42:04:09

Kelly Deutsch

so I think it's very easy to do that. The key then is really to pause so much. So much is in the pause. You know, when we are able to stop in the midst of a reaction, say, whoa, timeout, what's going on here? And sometimes it's hard to do in the exact moment. But even if, you know, doing an and at the end of the day, we can review our day a little bit and just see, like, examine our reactions, like what was going on there or, you know, if you want to go with a more traditional addictions, like, okay, I really wanted to drink this afternoon.

00:42:04:09 - 00:42:30:17

Kelly Deutsch

Like, okay, what happened? Like immediately preceding that and to be able to start walking through those things like, okay, what was I actually longing for? Like what was my discomfort? Was I looking for, you know, some sense of release was I, you know, really anxious and I just need something to take my mind off and numb out. Is it like to start doing that, spiraling down and looking underneath.

00:42:30:19 - 00:42:46:18

Kelly Deutsch

And that's where all of that inner work comes in. Whether you're doing it on your own or with someone else, is to really examine what's underneath all of our, smaller longings that are pointing to something greater. Right.

00:42:46:20 - 00:42:55:19

Karl Thienes

I like that phrase, the leaning into the pause. That's a really that's a beautiful one. So hard to do, though, right? To to live, to accept the silence of that moment.

00:42:56:06 - 00:42:57:07

Kelly Deutsch

yeah. Yeah.

00:42:57:14 - 00:43:13:15

Karl Thienes

What a relief, though. Yeah. No, I say, what a relief it is, though, especially if you're addicted to control. Right? Or if you want, if you desire a certain outcome based on your current, you know, state. usually we don't want what we really what we really want is something different than what we think we do.

00:43:13:17 - 00:43:14:26

Kelly Deutsch

Right? Exactly.

00:43:14:26 - 00:43:36:11

Karl Thienes

And the pause at least gives enough space and I know a lot of the, you know, desert fathers and mystics and saints of the church talk about. Right. Like there's a sense in which you, the, you know, the thoughts that precede the action, right? There's a sequence, there's a spiritual sort of progression that happens from initial like stimulus, let's say, which of course comes to us and we don't have any say over that.

00:43:36:11 - 00:43:51:12

Karl Thienes

Right? I mean, the world is just there, right? And we're present to it, and there's nothing wrong with that. Right. And so again, that's why a, contemplative practice that is allowing the thoughts, let's say, to go to, you know, go down the river and you notice them and you say, you know, hello, maybe if you're lucky and then you just let them go.

00:43:51:12 - 00:44:08:15

Karl Thienes

Right? You don't have that. You left the pause of that, of their movement move through you. so you're not attached to them. But, but again, that will most of us. Right, are like the stimulus. And then the response is so fast that something happens and we're yelling at our kids, or we're snapping at our spouse, or we're immediately judgmental.

00:44:08:15 - 00:44:27:10

Karl Thienes

And I think, you know, being judgmental is probably one of the biggest ones that we all share. right, is that we have all these preconceived ideas about the way the world should be and what it is and what our response should be. And we don't even take we don't have practices that help us take a second, right, or even a half a second, and just sit with something and let it be what it is.

00:44:27:10 - 00:44:52:06

Karl Thienes

And, I think we talked before about, you know, from an addiction point of view, letting reality be what it is is exceptionally difficult if you're if you're an addict, because you want it to be different, you probably better. I mean, maybe you're right about that, but, you know, if you don't have that sense of pause or that practice of learning to pause so that you can just accept things as they are first, right and loving, which, which is funny because that's what we want from God, right?

00:44:52:08 - 00:45:07:18

Karl Thienes

We right. We want unconditional love. And and he promises that to us. Right? But if you think about it from his point of view, practically one of the ways he does that is that he stays silent. He lets the pause of where we're at be where he is, right? And sometimes people will say, well, why don't I hear God?

00:45:07:18 - 00:45:22:04

Karl Thienes

Or why isn't he here? Or why isn't it more obvious that there's, you know, and the reason is that you're not listening, right? He's there. You're not taking enough time, right? Or you're not you're not actually quiet enough to to be present. so. Yeah.

00:45:22:06 - 00:45:40:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you're familiar with that Viktor Frankl quotes. You know that between stimulus and response, there's a gap in in that, yes, lies are freedom, you know, and I love I mean, I quote that whether I'm talking in spiritual direction or I'm talking in like corporate boardrooms and doing trainings on leadership, you know, because so much is, you know, it's like, mind the gap people.

00:45:40:28 - 00:46:07:17

Kelly Deutsch

I mean, this is if you've ever been over to England, you know, and you go into the tube or something in London, you'll hear when you're getting off the like the gut. And they're always like, mind the gap. And that's that's always what I have echoing in my head, is to just mind the gap between whatever is coming at you, whether it's like I remember once, one, I think it might have been my, my very first niece.

00:46:08:29 - 00:46:26:21

Kelly Deutsch

I think that to us doesn't matter. she spilled something on the floor. Spot a juice, let's say. And my sister, her mom, like, my immediate response is like, what I learned as a kid is you freak out like, oh my gosh, you spill the juice. Like, now we have a mess. Can you be more careful? I'll let you know.

00:46:26:22 - 00:46:53:25

Kelly Deutsch

Like, that's what I like immediately comes up in my head. But that's not what my sister said. My sister. And so I was like, oopsie daisy, let's get a paper towel. And my jaw just dropped. I was like, like, that's even an option. What? I didn't even realize that's an option. You know, like, and, sometimes we need other kinds of responses modeled for us to stop us in our tracks like that and say like, yeah, possibility here.

00:46:53:28 - 00:47:11:14

Kelly Deutsch

Like, I don't have to go with that learned reaction. That's, you know, the neural pathway that I'm most used to because I saw that model the most of my life and have probably done it plenty myself. but when we can see that there is another way and choose how we want to respond, like, oh my gosh, what?

00:47:11:16 - 00:47:34:14

Kelly Deutsch

I mean, that's why Viktor Frankl is so powerful to think of him in, you know, as concentration camp, recognizing that we can be in the most dire and awful of circumstances, but we can still choose our response. And that's how he maintained his humanity and how many people survived and maintained some sense of humanity. It's by saying like, okay, you cannot take this from me.

00:47:34:14 - 00:47:39:18

Kelly Deutsch

My ability to choose how I want to respond. That's right. Violet.

00:47:39:20 - 00:48:01:27

Karl Thienes

Yeah, yeah, that's our last freedom. Yeah. After all the other ones are taken. But it's one that can never be taken away unless you choose to give it away. Right? Right. And that's. And that's the hard thing though, right? And I remember hearing somebody talk to me once, about and this was in the context of sobriety, and they were saying that one of the ways they stayed sober was they thought, what would I do if I was in a concentration camp?

00:48:01:29 - 00:48:23:03

Karl Thienes

Like, how would I live? Right? And so, you know, if, you know, Viktor Frankl obviously has done an amazing job of outlining, right? Just psychologically, practically how you go about doing that. But it's such a sobering thing to think through. right. Who would I have to become right to not only endure that and to survive in just a, you know, bare bones kind of way, but how could I how could things actually maybe be better?

00:48:23:03 - 00:48:30:10

Karl Thienes

How could more of reality and more of God's love maybe even be more available to me? that's but that's hard work, right? And that's.

00:48:30:17 - 00:48:54:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I know. Have you read, Walter Isaac? he's. No. Oh, let me he Leadeth Me is his first book. And then with God and Russia. And he, was a priest who was, captured and kept in solitary confinement in Russia, for a long time. But like that to me, I mean, we talked a little bit about detachment before.

00:48:54:07 - 00:49:16:24

Kelly Deutsch

He has just such a marvelous example. I mean, you want to talk about, like, someone showing you that there's another way to respond to reality, like, oh, man, you know, when he was in solitary and he just was able to say like, okay, my coming to like, whatever was happening, which was just so mind blowing because at the beginning, you know, he was so concerned with like, okay, well, what's the right thing to do?

00:49:16:24 - 00:49:34:04

Kelly Deutsch

And morally like, for example, they asked him to go undercover into the Vatican as a Russian spy. And at the in the moment, he was like, I felt like I was supposed to say yes. So I did, you know, and he's like, I didn't like I wasn't concerned about it. I just was like, this is where I feel called to go.

00:49:34:04 - 00:49:52:05

Kelly Deutsch

And if this is what God wants me to do, I'll take care of it. And then it came like the day to leave and to actually go. And he was like, no, I'm not going to like you just, you know. And he was like, I just had to respond to what I felt led to in the moment, and I knew what I'd probably be punished for it, but that's what I needed to do.

00:49:52:05 - 00:49:59:14

Kelly Deutsch

And he just had such a freedom and detachment about it. Like, man, like, if I can talk about in my daily life.

00:49:59:16 - 00:50:16:06

Karl Thienes

Right. Well, and that's why we need to practice it in our daily life. Right. Because you we don't like. Who would you become if you're in that scenario is predicated on who you've been, you know, ten years ago and last week. Right. And so for me at like into to bring up like IBS for a minute or and I wasn't right.

00:50:16:06 - 00:50:32:23

Karl Thienes

Is that like I like to think too. And this really helped me in sobriety was to think, you know, one thing is that you have to get out of yourself, right? And start to learn to to realize that other people matter and that you're not, you're not the only person who matters. But, but also just internally, right, that there's multiple versions of you.

00:50:32:25 - 00:50:47:06

Karl Thienes

Right? If you think of yourself, you take, you know, if you step out for a minute, you look at the that at your timeline in your life is that there's as many versions of you as there are moments. Right. And so there's a ton of versions of you in the future that are waiting for you today to become who you could be.

00:50:47:06 - 00:51:03:13

Karl Thienes

Right? And they're there in some ways, maybe praying for you. There's like a mystical element almost to your own personal life in that sense. right. And that if you get your list of personalities, let's say, in the present moment, aligned so that they're serving the highest good and that you're the Christ self that's within you, right?

00:51:03:13 - 00:51:19:14

Karl Thienes

That that truly is in communion with God, whether you know it or not. right. As that is that version of you is the one that's starting to create the order, that's necessary for you to be a fully flourishing person. Then all of a sudden, you're, you're free, right, to to switch and change your decisions or to make better ones.

00:51:19:14 - 00:51:34:04

Karl Thienes

Right. And you're you're not compelled anymore by your environment or by your, your programing or. Right. So many things. And then again, that sense of riding the wave of your life as it comes to you becomes something. It's not so difficult anymore if you have if you're out of your own way. Right?

00:51:34:05 - 00:52:01:01

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. yeah. That's why I, I love that, image for if your internal life of like yourself of capital s your true self, Christ consciousness, whatever. If people want to call that that divine spark is the orchestra conductor, you know, and all the other parts are like playing these various instruments. But the problem is sometimes, like the woodwind stage, okay, to, you know, they're just like, we're taking over and we're going to, you know, it's like, no, no, you're not in charge.

00:52:01:01 - 00:52:18:09

Kelly Deutsch

Actually, like at this point in life, we need a little more strings like violins. Can we hear a little more from you? Woodwinds calm down. Okay. You know, and like if the conductor says, you know, and that's again in the moment. Like, you don't have to these parts don't have to work so hard. You know, sometimes, I mean, to go back to some of the examples we used before.

00:52:18:14 - 00:52:34:12

Kelly Deutsch

Sometimes the people pleaser part of you is like really loud and you're like, okay, we need a little less of you right now. I actually need my assertive part to stand up right now because I need to hold a firm boundary, you know? And so I'm like, sure, we're here. And each to calm down a little bit, you do a great job when I need you, but now's not the time.

00:52:34:12 - 00:52:56:20

Kelly Deutsch

You know, like now's is not your time to shine. Assertive part strings, whatever you are. But it makes it so much easier when you have that, groundedness in your true self. Who can call those shots and decide which parts of you you know it's meant to make this wonderful orchestra, this symphony, right here on line?

00:52:56:20 - 00:53:13:20

Karl Thienes

Yeah. Now that's beautiful. I love that idea of the symphony. Yeah. Because. Right, the harmony that we hear in music that is so compelling. Right. And it's so transcendent and such a mystical experience, really, especially for music that particularly grips you. right. It's a participation in that dance, that very right that the dance of life as it is.

00:53:13:20 - 00:53:34:12

Karl Thienes

Right? I mean, it's it's happening all around us. That music. but the harmony of reality. and again, it goes back to, you know, the acceptance of the things that are in your life and being willing to invite those, discordant sort of notes that we experience and to have them to invite them in. Right, and to have them be part of it so that we're not, the conductor.

00:53:34:12 - 00:53:54:00

Karl Thienes

Right. Oh, can't control the music. Right. And if somebody makes an off note, you have to just roll with it and somehow find a way to to, you know, fit it into the overall structure. and that takes a certain. Right, detachment. And then, but also like loving acceptance. Right. That the errors and the beauty can there's nothing that can nothing's lost.

00:53:54:01 - 00:54:16:11

Karl Thienes

Right. You're if you're really centered on and grounded in who you are, that there's nothing that and that to me is the entity, the, intuition I think of that truth is the beginning of salvation, right? The trust that we can have in God that he that right, that at the end, all the tears will be wiped away, and that all the sorrows of our life will will not be not only will not be for nothing, but they'll be part of the story.

00:54:16:11 - 00:54:32:19

Karl Thienes

In the same way that Thomas wanted to touch the hands and side of Jesus, that right? Even in his resurrected state, Christ still had his wounds, and they were, in fact, what made him even more amazing, right? That it wasn't just some demigod or ghost or whatever. It was their Lord. It was their their friend who was standing before them.

00:54:32:19 - 00:54:52:22

Karl Thienes

Right. And I think that's, you know, and to just circle back, I guess, on suffering as a, you know, there's probably a reason maybe the mystical life is led by the people who, who seem to have gone down that road so well are people who have so many wounds, right, that are wounds. And in many ways are our ticket, into that life.

00:54:52:22 - 00:55:12:04

Karl Thienes

And maybe that's one of the, the things about the world as it is today with, you know, the state of the world and that it's in is that there's so much suffering. I mean, there always has been. Right? But it's more and more evident, I think, to all of us. Yeah. right. That things are not as they should be and that things that are happening in the world are in desperate need of prayer and people.

00:55:12:04 - 00:55:28:19

Karl Thienes

Right. I think you use the phrase in one of your, either your book I it might have been on your podcast about being a love warrior, which I love that phrase, that idea of like, you know, again, warriors and lovers don't seem to write Mash, but in the mystic, right? they literally are the same person. yeah.

00:55:28:19 - 00:55:31:05

Karl Thienes

So balance. Right? The warrior spirit, the lover.

00:55:31:07 - 00:55:55:06

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. I know it's all those paradoxes. And so that's that's the tough part is living in the tension, you know, and again, that's I feel like one of the underlying scenes with longing and the already but not yet and learning what it is to balance. I don't know, how do we find that sweet spot or is T.S. Eliot calls it the still point of turning world?

00:55:55:06 - 00:56:20:16

Kelly Deutsch

You know, that intersection point between the spiritual and the material, the vertical, the horizontal, the one and the many? You know, these are just fundamental tension points of reality. But that's that's where the spark is. That's where the life is. And perhaps the disappointing news is it's never going to be fully resolved. But the exciting part is that's that's the whole game, you know, that's the whole dance.

00:56:20:16 - 00:56:41:26

Kelly Deutsch

That's the power of crisis. That's where it all happens. And it might be a little bit uncomfortable now because we need to be stretched wider like it's too big. We can't contain all that jet fuel. But it's something that's so powerful because it's, you know, trying to stretch open enough space in us to receive more and more and more and more.

00:56:41:29 - 00:56:44:04

Karl Thienes

Right. Beautiful.

00:56:44:06 - 00:56:46:16

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:56:47:14 - 00:57:12:19

Karl Thienes

maybe last question. in terms of like, you know, I think sometimes people wonder or think about like, you know, am I a mystic? Am I call to that? What is that? Maybe they're interested in it. Maybe it's something that's, that they know something about, but they're interested in more. what's the one quality? that you would say would kind of define somebody who's like, on the mystical path or is on their way to becoming one, even if they don't know it?

00:57:12:19 - 00:57:14:03

Karl Thienes

Let's say.

00:57:18:26 - 00:57:41:12

Kelly Deutsch

I think two those two qualities that we've been talking about here of both longing and detachment, longing like, because that longing is not just something that we came up with on our own. Like it's something that's been planted in our heart and is part of the divine longing in us, you know? So that's already part of divine union.

00:57:41:12 - 00:58:18:16

Kelly Deutsch

It's not just leading you towards it, it's part of God already being in you, you know? So that's something that's like, if you feel this longing towards this unnamable, something like that's, that's already at the beginning of the path, like you're already on it, like keep searching, follow it. And then that other the detachment, you might also speak of it as liminality, like living in those liminal spaces, but being okay, living there, you know, as you, as you learn to adapt that receptive stance that that fiats where you just say, I'm going to accept what life is sending me.

00:58:19:21 - 00:58:47:21

Kelly Deutsch

that allows you to live with so much more freedom and detachment, where you say, like, I don't know, like it's just remarkable to me how much it can change your your day to day, quality of life, even, you know, when you're able to just, like, not get so angry at the world or so anxious or have such intense responses to things, or I like to call double reactions, you know, when we're not just anxious but we're anxious about being anxious, you know, or depressed about being depressed.

00:58:47:29 - 00:59:11:05

Kelly Deutsch

But I can just say, like, okay, I'm feeling anxious today. Like this is rather uncomfortable. How am I going to live with this? Like, do I just need to go binge watch Netflix? Like, sometimes that's okay. You know, like, so I'm doing that like 48 hours a week. Well, maybe not, but you know, like if I need that to just get my body to calm down enough to be present, okay.

00:59:11:05 - 00:59:28:10

Kelly Deutsch

That's fine. You know, and so being able to have that open hand in that sort of freedom, I think is one very, telltale sign that someone is growing spiritually and probably has got some, mystical intuitions.

00:59:28:13 - 00:59:31:03

Karl Thienes

Yes. Beautiful.

00:59:31:06 - 00:59:40:29

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been fun. being on the, opposite end of the podcast.

00:59:41:02 - 00:59:43:09

Karl Thienes

Sorry. Yeah, it's it's all right.

00:59:43:12 - 00:59:46:19

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I look forward to our next conversation as we.