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Loving Acceptance of our Helplessness
wtih Karl Thienes
In this episode, host Kelly Deutsch shares frankly about her difficulty accepting her chronic illness, while returning guest Karl Thienes shares his momentary identity crisis.
Join us to explore questions like: 🔸 What does an identity crisis have to do with detachment? 🔹 What does it mean to accept even the most difficult experiences - like accepting our own resentment? 🔸 How do you slow down your reactions so you can tell what’s triggering you? 🔹 How does your shadow reveal your addictions? 🔸 Why we need to take care of our bodies like house plants 🔹 What kinds of behavior should we never accept?
And above all: Why does the divine show up in the least expected places?
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:29
Kelly Deutsch
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Deutsch, and today we have joining us Carl Phenix, who is a repeat guest, who is also a spiritual director here at Spiritual Wanderlust as well as a poet, a father, and what I might call a religious explorer. So I have been excited to talk to you and catch up.
00:00:25:29 - 00:00:40:18
Kelly Deutsch
And before we hopped on the air here, we were just talking about, identities and attachment. And I have a lot of thoughts on that as well. So I'm wondering if you would like to share, what life has been teaching you about that?
00:00:40:20 - 00:01:00:14
Karl Thienes
Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, as we were saying, I, my family has gone, for the week, and I'm kind of here, home alone, for the week, and I've been, struggling with trying to understand, kind of like what I'm supposed to do with this time now that I have in front of me, which is always the question we have right when we wake up in the morning, it's, how am I?
00:01:00:17 - 00:01:31:14
Karl Thienes
How am I going to respond to the fact that I'm here again and I have this incredible pallet of opportunities in front of me? And you know what? What paintbrushes do I use and how do I proceed through that? And, and for me, as I, you know, put them on the plane and went back to work and, and then started thinking about what I want this upcoming week, like, I, I had this very strange kind of different feelings come over me, on the one hand, super excited to have some some time to, to be to be silent and to have some solitude and go on walks and catch up on my reading, write
00:01:31:14 - 00:01:50:04
Karl Thienes
all these things that we would love to do. everybody has a laundry list of things that they'd love to do if they have the time. Right. and so I have that incredible opportunity. But on the other hand, I have my kids here and my wife gone and and write all of these to think markers of my life, of who I, see myself right as a husband and a father and and all of that.
00:01:50:15 - 00:02:08:21
Karl Thienes
and to have those removed, even for a short period, is just a strange feeling because I'm, I'm also a little lost, honestly. you know, it's like I get the house all clean and nobody's here to dirty it up, and I do. Right. and it's a that's a trip, like, you know, kind of a trivial example, but, it's just interesting.
00:02:08:21 - 00:02:37:15
Karl Thienes
What, what how much of our identity is wrapped up in these titles or these roles that we have, which are beautiful things. Right? And especially my husband and father who who wouldn't think that that's a good calling? or a noble calling. Right. but to have it even temporarily removed is just a strange feeling of realizing that I'm not the roles that I've taken on, or something deeper about who I am that that is revealed in these moments when the duties of those role or, are kind of off the center stage for the moment.
00:02:37:25 - 00:02:48:02
Karl Thienes
and so anyway, so that's a strange feeling of excitement about maybe trying to figure out who I am without having those roles. but also just a little bit lost without them. so it's a strange. It's a strange feeling.
00:02:48:05 - 00:03:09:25
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I get that. And I so much of that makes brings me back to, you know, when I first fell ill, like, nine, ten years ago and having all of the roles stripped for me of, like, who I thought I was and Kelly, who was going to be, you know, the sister, the one who's going to go be this joyful servant and love everybody and all of a sudden I was like, bedridden.
00:03:09:25 - 00:03:33:03
Kelly Deutsch
And I, I couldn't even smile, let alone, you know, serve people like I was so, you know, weak in bed and that that can cause such an eye like an identity crisis, you know, and I think of so many dear people that I talk with in spiritual direction who are grappling with that, you know, whether it's, you know, divorced or empty nesting or retiring or any of those big life changes.
00:03:33:03 - 00:03:56:29
Kelly Deutsch
And all of a sudden, you know, I've been a nurse for 30 years or I've been like a mom for this long or, well, it's just remarkable how much we get tied up with those things. And and I'm noticing for myself, as I've been grappling with some health issues lately, just my level of attachment that I didn't realize I had until it was, like, really stripped for me.
00:03:56:29 - 00:04:27:29
Kelly Deutsch
I'm like, dang it. Like, I know these things, but I just, oh, you know, sometimes it just, gets thrown in your face, like, I mean, similarly, wouldn't it would be strange not to have some level of attachment to health, you know, to want health and that to be present for you. But then when it's stripped away and I was just surprised at the amount of, interior resistance that I felt.
00:04:28:06 - 00:04:38:06
Kelly Deutsch
And I think I've shared this with you before. I mean, that was, you know, also what prompted me to check out, like, 12 steps for chronic pain and chronic illness, because I was like, I have a lot of anger in here.
00:04:38:06 - 00:04:39:06
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:04:39:09 - 00:04:49:22
Kelly Deutsch
This is where I am in life. which was also something that kind of surprised me, or at least some parts of me.
00:04:49:24 - 00:04:51:16
Karl Thienes
The anger is what surprised you.
00:04:51:18 - 00:05:15:18
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, just, I think not just the anger, because, I mean, oftentimes when I was struggling with health, I'll have at least an initial, like, you know, or something. Let's not entirely be positive, you know, whether it's anxiety or frustration or whatever it is. Sadness. but eventually I can get myself to relax, accept, and just say, you know what?
00:05:15:18 - 00:05:33:01
Kelly Deutsch
This is just what is, but whatever. That was like a week and a half ago or whenever this first started for me, I just was angry all weekend and felt so much resistance, even somatic in my body. I could just feel this tension. I was like, okay.
00:05:33:03 - 00:05:33:28
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:05:34:00 - 00:05:50:00
Kelly Deutsch
This is I don't usually have this amount, but I'm also I mean, it was also, you know, pretty severe episode of, of this kind of health crashing for me. So, I was like, okay, well good reminder that, like, everything is grace and.
00:05:50:00 - 00:05:50:11
Karl Thienes
I.
00:05:50:12 - 00:06:03:05
Kelly Deutsch
Can't ever, you know, be like, yeah. So now I've got my life together, which it's easy to live in that charade, I think when, when life is going well.
00:06:04:06 - 00:06:25:07
Karl Thienes
yeah. And it is a charade because. Right, this life is going to end at some point and our health will fail us, like fundamentally. Right? One day. and it is it's so easy to forget that. I mean, the life or culture doesn't remind us. In fact, it reminds us almost the other thing, or it goes the other way and, you know, convincing us that we are young and or should be young forever.
00:06:25:24 - 00:06:43:06
Karl Thienes
and I, you know, even this morning, I had the same. I'm not sad because I'm confused about what I should do or or even sad that my, you know, family is gone. But just for a few. What I'm really sad about is the fact that I have to pick up everything in this life one day. And right.
00:06:43:06 - 00:07:08:09
Karl Thienes
And so it brings up a much deeper existential spiritual sort of grief. Really. Yeah. Right. That and, and in some ways as a believer, you know, and, and somebody who believes in the resurrection and who believes that. Right, that God will make all things new, you know, even even me has still I have to still grapple, right with the message that life takes us through as it takes us through death, and nobody escapes.
00:07:09:01 - 00:07:27:28
Karl Thienes
and it's so easy, you know, to forget that that is still what's in front of us. And. And yet. Right. We still have hope, you know, that that it's through that process that, you know, that what's good and true and beautiful will be resurrected and that the tears will be wiped away and all pain and sorrow will be will, you know, will have flown away.
00:07:27:28 - 00:07:46:04
Karl Thienes
But but that's, that's then here is we have to deal with, you know, whether it's our health failing us or friends and family gone or like you said before, with people with and, you know, going through transitions in life, empty nesting, retirement, children moving out, all of that. Right? I mean, every day we have something in front of us that's changing.
00:07:46:18 - 00:08:10:02
Karl Thienes
and if we're too tightly wound, you know, in holding on to what we thought we had or what we currently think, then we're not open right, to what's happening in front of us. And, and I think that is right. Acceptance. You know, like you said, it's that's definitely the first they think of responding and respecting that that moment when it comes to us is, well, there's maybe there's nothing I can do about it and maybe not.
00:08:10:02 - 00:08:16:17
Karl Thienes
So I have to have serenity over the things that I can change and change and, and you know, that's easier said than done.
00:08:16:23 - 00:08:44:21
Kelly Deutsch
Seriously, that discerning between those two, you know, like what? What do I have? Like power over? What can I influence and what do I just need to let go of? Because, speaking for myself with illness, you know, it's it's tricky for me sometimes to distinguish, like, when am I trying to push too hard, you know, in, like, researching different, like, whatever, just health conditions and doctors and approaches and all of that stuff.
00:08:44:21 - 00:09:01:29
Kelly Deutsch
And when do I just need to accept that this is the condition that I have? And I find sometimes I pendulum swing, you know, like for the past two years, I've mostly just been in like, well, I'll just accept and then I have a part in me that, you know, kind of rises up and is like, well, let's get angry.
00:09:01:29 - 00:09:04:27
Kelly Deutsch
So she at least has energy to do something about it, you know.
00:09:05:00 - 00:09:05:23
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:09:05:25 - 00:09:31:08
Kelly Deutsch
Now let's find some doctors to frickin change this, you know? but there there can be such a fixation on, I mean, whatever our attachment is, but I, I'm thinking of one good friend of mine who, originally introduced me to the 12 steps, and she's like, you need to stop focusing on being fixed. Fixed, fixed.
00:09:31:10 - 00:09:33:21
Karl Thienes
Yeah. That's right.
00:09:33:24 - 00:09:34:20
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00:09:34:22 - 00:09:35:10
Karl Thienes
Yeah. Well, so.
00:09:35:11 - 00:09:38:04
Kelly Deutsch
Do. Yeah.
00:09:38:06 - 00:09:57:02
Karl Thienes
Yeah yeah yeah. Because maybe being broken is what you need right now, right. I think I think that line, I think that line where Jesus said, you know, who, who are you to call? Like, who are you calling good. Only God is good, right? And of course, he was God. But but the point of that right was to teach us that art, our instinct or our initial thought about what?
00:09:57:09 - 00:10:15:29
Karl Thienes
Whether something's good or bad in that kind of dualism way of seeing things is usually mistaken because, well, good, based on what my personal preferences of at the moment that are probably rather transitory and probably self-centered. and even if they're noble, right. It is it. Who am I to really make that that determination?
00:10:16:01 - 00:10:16:27
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00:10:16:29 - 00:10:33:23
Karl Thienes
But at the same time. Right. We know that like, especially when it comes to our bodily health, for sure. And that's like the final frontier. is that of course it's a good thing to be healthy and and a not good thing to be sick, right? I mean, that's a, that's an obvious truism of just life. but our life is not just our body.
00:10:33:23 - 00:10:58:13
Karl Thienes
And I think that's where then, right then we have the paradox of, you want to care for yourself as if you're somebody worth caring for, right? And you treat your body with respect and you try to make it better, right? With remedies and doctors and protocols and whatever. Right. But at some point, you know, or maybe throughout that entire process, you, you have a, a conscious awareness of the fact that, you know, this particular manifestation is, is passing away.
00:10:58:13 - 00:11:15:03
Karl Thienes
And at the end, no doctor, no medicine, nothing will save you. Right. so to live in that ambiguity of those two spaces of I'm going to honor and cherish something that I know is going to die, I mean, and that I think is really in many ways, the noble calling of our life, right, is to knowing full well, right.
00:11:15:04 - 00:11:37:19
Karl Thienes
And I think that also ties into maybe our roles too, especially with important roles like father, mother or or, you know, child or whatever. Is that to be to take that calling on is to in some ways know that it's going to end and it's going to do it anyway. Right? As and particularly I think as a parent, and maybe even a mother most particularly is to bring something of life into the world, knowing full well that it's going to die.
00:11:37:19 - 00:11:58:00
Karl Thienes
I mean, it puts you right at the heart of kind of Marian, sort of a Marian vision of the world, if you will, from a Catholic point of view, right. Of the sword that goes through your heart is to know that your son is going to die. and, and but the bravery that it takes, right, to still do the right thing, to still take care of this body once again, it is falling apart, and to treat it with respect, the entire way is,
00:11:58:03 - 00:12:17:06
Karl Thienes
Well, I think it's also what makes us, It is so inspiring when you watch somebody go through an illness or go through death, right, with maintaining that sense of deep serenity. I mean, they may be suffering terribly in many cases, but there's something of the human person that is within the body, but also in many ways, does transcend it.
00:12:17:08 - 00:12:25:00
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, yeah, I know, I love, how Julian of Norwich calls it being supple. You know, and I think that's such a great.
00:12:25:02 - 00:12:25:15
Karl Thienes
Body.
00:12:25:17 - 00:12:29:22
Kelly Deutsch
Word for it, you know. But it it's so hard.
00:12:29:24 - 00:12:31:16
Karl Thienes
You know, so easier said than done.
00:12:31:16 - 00:12:52:09
Kelly Deutsch
I and it's funny, I, I've had this happen so many times in life and I'm guessing you have to and probably people listening where you, you almost get used to like a certain level of, of trust and surrender and acceptance. You know, where you're like, okay, I'm starting to get used to this. Like, this isn't so bad. And then all of a sudden it's like you plunk down to the next.
00:12:52:09 - 00:12:55:09
Karl Thienes
Level and you're like, oh, I can like, I just.
00:12:55:12 - 00:13:17:07
Kelly Deutsch
Can't handle this, you know? Which is kind of the whole point, you know, to make sure you're not depending on yourself. Yeah. And, I know I mentioned to you before this, Ruth Burrows, who I've been reading more of, we're doing right. Yeah. A class on her and women mystics coming up. And just some of her quotes have just been kicking me.
00:13:17:10 - 00:13:18:00
Karl Thienes
In the butt.
00:13:18:02 - 00:13:20:21
Kelly Deutsch
So bad. I just I need to share a couple of. Yeah.
00:13:20:21 - 00:13:21:08
Karl Thienes
With the.
00:13:21:10 - 00:13:46:20
Kelly Deutsch
Okay, let me here, I'll put this in the chat so you can see this. okay. So Ruth says, and this is a Carmelite who's like 99 years old, living in England, and she, she's just mind blowing. She says she speaks of spiritual poverty. So just plainly and lucidly that I'm like, what? What do I have left to say?
00:13:46:20 - 00:14:12:02
Kelly Deutsch
Like Ruth Burrows has already said it all. And I know, like Rowan Williams is like a huge fan. He asked her to write more books because he was so changed by her first book that he read like 40 years ago, and wow, Sister Wendy of BBC, you know, the art art nun, claims that Ruth Burrows should be amongst like Teresa of Avila and Hildegard and all the greats, and so she's very highly spoken of.
00:14:13:09 - 00:14:50:23
Kelly Deutsch
and I love her. So she says God is always working to bring us to an awareness and an acceptance of our poverty, which is the essential condition of our being able to receive him, which that much already the fact that our poverty and just our messiness is an essential condition of being able to receive God like I feel like that's so much of what I was trying to express when I wrote Spiritual Wanderlust, you know, was like that cavity that we have inside that's so, like there's so much it can feel like angst.
00:14:50:23 - 00:15:06:16
Kelly Deutsch
It can feel like yearning, it can feel like distress and crisis or whatever. But it hurts, you know, you just realize, like, I can do nothing. And but that's that's exactly the space that the divine needs to pour himself out.
00:15:06:18 - 00:15:06:29
Karl Thienes
Yeah.
00:15:07:06 - 00:15:07:19
Kelly Deutsch
You know.
00:15:07:19 - 00:15:08:14
Karl Thienes
Exactly right.
00:15:08:16 - 00:15:36:07
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. So she goes on to say, Ruth says, the petty frustrations, the restrictions, humiliations, the occasions when we are made to feel poignantly and distressingly hedged around, not in control of the world, not even in control of that tiny corner of it we are supposed to call our own, our his chosen channel into the soul. Like all of those difficult, painful, uncomfortable things are God's chosen channel.
00:15:36:09 - 00:16:06:19
Karl Thienes
Yeah, but that's so beautiful. And it's so reassuring to, I think, for me to hear them write, to remember that the. Yeah, like the petty frustration, even the petty frustrations. Right. There are all of these incredible opportunities, right, to accept our poverty, accept the fact that we're not God and we're not in control of practically almost anything, which is, I think, why the first step of the 12 step programs is so incredible because the, you know, the acceptance of powerlessness is the is the spiritual foundation upon which almost everything has to come from.
00:16:06:25 - 00:16:11:29
Karl Thienes
And we don't want that. We don't want that. Right? I don't want that. Like.
00:16:12:01 - 00:16:14:16
Kelly Deutsch
I don't want to be powerless over my illness. Like.
00:16:14:19 - 00:16:17:27
Karl Thienes
No, it's a very painful place to be.
00:16:18:00 - 00:16:24:01
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, it is, and it's it's so good. Ruth, let me just share one more quote.
00:16:24:01 - 00:16:24:11
Karl Thienes
Yeah.
00:16:24:11 - 00:17:05:02
Kelly Deutsch
Ruth goes on to say it is borne in on me more as the years go by. How profound is this theme of human helplessness and our loving acceptance of it? It is truly mystical, human helplessness and our loving acceptance of it is truly mystical. Like, thank you Ruth. Like, I feel like I spend so much time trying to, help others and oftentimes myself understand that like the mystical life, contemplation, divine union is not about all of the wonderful feelings of peace and closeness to God.
00:17:05:02 - 00:17:25:24
Kelly Deutsch
And those can be wonderful and they can be a part of it. But Ruth goes on to say, like, if you can feel it, it's not a mystical grace, like it happens in the darkness, and it's in our helplessness in our poverty that that happens. That's where the transformation happens. And I don't think any of us want to hear that.
00:17:25:26 - 00:17:45:14
Karl Thienes
No, no, you shouldn't want to hear it, that's for sure. It's a hard it's a hard message. Right. And I think I think of all the times that people turned away from Jesus during his ministry. You know, the Scripture says, because he was saying he had a hard saying. Right. And I think these are this is a perfect example of, you know, yeah, it's a truth that nobody likes.
00:17:46:06 - 00:18:08:00
Karl Thienes
but I love the, the word that, clarified or that that was attitude in terms of acceptance. Right. It's not just acceptance. It's not resignation. It's not just, apathy, right or right. It's loving acceptance. And I love that. Right. The energy of that, which is that like the God as love, right, invites us to love what is right and that works with us in that.
00:18:08:00 - 00:18:34:14
Karl Thienes
And so as we find ways right to lovingly accept, not just accept, but lovingly, yes. the poverty, we realize that, you know, like Saint Paul said, like I, I, you know, I'm content in my weaknesses. I'm actually boasting in them because they're the portal. They're the they're the, the point at which. Right, the divine union happens and it can be no other way, because God has to meet us where he's, able to participate with us, and he can't.
00:18:34:20 - 00:18:41:25
Karl Thienes
He's not gonna participate or camp or dissipate with us in areas where we've decided we're already in charge. So our poverty is it. That's that's the doorway.
00:18:42:02 - 00:19:08:07
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I know that's another reason I've kind of had this renewed love for Teresa with you. who was my. I chose her as my confirmation saint. She was like, one of my first favorite saints that I really enjoyed. The little flower. but then, when I was in the convent in Rome, I kind of grew in this distaste for her because she's she's very flowery language, you know, and I was like, this is a little sappy.
00:19:08:07 - 00:19:30:10
Kelly Deutsch
It's saccharine, you know, almost too sweet. We're like, who? but if you if you consider the heart of her message, Teresa. And, you know, again, she she influences so many of the modern mystics from, you know, from Ruth Burroughs herself to Dorothy Day to, I mean, Mother Teresa took her name after her, not after Teresa of Avila.
00:19:31:15 - 00:19:56:04
Kelly Deutsch
and but just her, her ability to recognize that it's it's in the littleness, in our littleness and our poverty in our, our very nothingness that we present to God. You know, when we realize that we are powerless, that's this profound gift that we can give to divine mystery. And that's all he really wants from us. You know, is to offer up our littleness.
00:19:56:06 - 00:20:04:23
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, and I don't yeah, that all we need to do is allow God to love us in that. Like, that's that's what it's all about.
00:20:04:25 - 00:20:07:25
Karl Thienes
Yeah. Yeah. Hard to do though.
00:20:07:27 - 00:20:22:10
Kelly Deutsch
It is. So working hard. I, I always have to hold my breath just a little bit. when people start talking about the dark night of the soul, kind of, you know, just offhandedly because I'm like, careful.
00:20:22:13 - 00:20:23:06
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:20:23:08 - 00:20:43:24
Kelly Deutsch
That's a really difficult transition. And John of the cross is talking about something very specific there. But I mean, just the cross in general. You know, when I thought I knew what suffering was and I thought I knew, like, how to carry my cross and, you know, all those wonderful kind of terms that we captured in at least in Christianity.
00:20:43:26 - 00:20:48:20
Kelly Deutsch
And then when my life fell apart, I was like, hell, no. Like I had no.
00:20:48:20 - 00:21:06:13
Karl Thienes
Idea what all those concepts become. Just words at that point that yeah, the revealed for the emptiness that they probably were all alone. Right? Because to your point, right. If you feel good about them, you're they're probably something that you're missing. But on the other hand. Right. It's also not it's not a reason to despair as well. Right.
00:21:06:26 - 00:21:31:04
Karl Thienes
there's a saying in the Eastern Orthodox Church, from one of the more modern sayings. He said, keep your, keep your mind in hell, but despair not. That's a tricky one, right? To pass through. But the the point essentially he was making is that the Christian life is a is a paradoxical life, right? It's you have to stay engaged with reality and reality in this life in many ways, for most of the time, for most people is rather hellish.
00:21:31:04 - 00:21:52:14
Karl Thienes
And most of us, particularly those of us living in, you know, relative comfort, have no idea, right? We really have no idea how bad, how bad, you know, life can get, at least on paper. but at the same time, the admonition is not to despair, right? Because this is not the end. And and not not only is this not the end in terms of the future, but the loving acceptance, like you said.
00:21:52:14 - 00:22:12:02
Karl Thienes
Right? Or, is the is the is an incredible mystical portal in many ways into, not escaping from the suffering necessarily, but transforming it from within. Right. And it comes a point at which then God then does, you know, come and comfort us. and he may comfort us by removing some of the thorns in our side.
00:22:12:02 - 00:22:32:00
Karl Thienes
You know, maybe he takes away the most immediate pressing issue. but or or not. Right. And I think a lot too, of like the, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, the three Holies story, right where they told the king, like, look, we worship a God who we know could remove us from your presence and could save us from your, you know, totalitarian impulses.
00:22:32:26 - 00:22:50:06
Karl Thienes
but even if he doesn't, that's not going to change our devotion to him. And we are not going to do things that we know are wrong. Right? We're not going to speak light into the world. We're not going to act in ways that violate our conscience. and that hurt the people around us. And so whatever comes to us is something that we are going to lovingly accept essentially.
00:22:50:09 - 00:23:10:01
Karl Thienes
Right. And then, of course, in that story, you know, a miraculous, you know, series of events happen, but sometimes it doesn't, right? Sometimes it doesn't, and many times it doesn't. At least, you know, we hear a lot about miraculous stories and you know that, you know, glory, God for those. Right? But many, many times, we're not always immediately relieved of the things that are tormenting us or the ways in which we're tormenting ourselves.
00:23:10:04 - 00:23:32:18
Karl Thienes
Right. We're with you on, but, but it doesn't matter, right? Either way, there's, there's grace to be had because there's lessons for us in that. And I think the fundamental lesson probably always is, the poverty of true humility, which is to to say yes to God, even if I don't understand, even if I don't like this right now, even if I think it's bad.
00:23:32:26 - 00:23:49:07
Karl Thienes
maybe even if it is bad. Right. it's to say into your hands I commit my spirit. And, you know, we're. I think with though sometimes as believers, we underestimate the power of that. And we see it all around us. Or we could see it if we open our eyes that there are people all around us bearing unbelievable crosses.
00:23:49:09 - 00:24:12:20
Karl Thienes
I mean, you know, your whole story. I mean, if you dig, just, you know, if you get that small talk and you can talk to somebody for five minutes about what's really going on in their life, inevitably, right? They either have some personal, they have some personal catastrophe that's happening to them, their own physical health, the physical health of loved ones, job loss, and particularly these days in the past year, between the suffering of the world has multiplied exponentially to the point that it's almost breathtaking.
00:24:12:22 - 00:24:33:08
Karl Thienes
And, and so anyway, for me, I'm just, in awe. I think of the work that people are doing to keep themselves together and to keep their families together and to, and I think it's it's a temptation. Right to despair, right to despair instead of being willing to trust that God will save us in the end.
00:24:33:10 - 00:24:50:15
Karl Thienes
And it might be today, it might be ten years from now, and it might be on the next, you know, in the next life. But his mercy never fails, and his love is his love does triumph. and and it starts now. That's the other thing. It isn't just at the end that lovingly accepting our poverty really does bear fruit, even if you don't see it.
00:24:50:15 - 00:25:02:21
Karl Thienes
Maybe God's hiding it from you. maybe to protect you a little bit so that you don't get too puffed up. But like, those prayers don't go unanswered. but it sure is hard when we're on the side of it to see that love, that's for sure.
00:25:02:21 - 00:25:29:28
Kelly Deutsch
I know that's yeah, the painful part is when we are left in darkness, not feeling anything and I mean, even just thinking of of Ruth Burrows again, she talks about how, like she has this one kind of powerful experience when she's like 17 or 18 of God and then never again, she's like entered Carmel and she's like, I have been in darkness my entire life.
00:25:30:02 - 00:25:51:03
Kelly Deutsch
She's like, you asked me if I love God. Like, I don't know if I can say that I love him because I feel like love is a feeling and I have no feelings whatsoever. Like it's been. But I trust him with like, the depth of everything that I am, you know? And it's just crazy how those things can coexist.
00:25:51:27 - 00:26:17:06
Kelly Deutsch
you know, and she's she talks about this profound, like, deep black depression that she struggled with throughout her life. And yet how coexisting with that is this profound trust that she has and knows that because of how how weak and poor she feels, just because of her own constitution and what she's been given, you know, she's like all the more so God has space to pour himself out.
00:26:17:28 - 00:26:25:09
Kelly Deutsch
You know, and that's, that's, I think, where that littleness, that poverty, can become such a gift.
00:26:25:11 - 00:26:52:25
Karl Thienes
Right? Yeah. And it's fueled probably by fact, by gratitude. Right. That, I know for me personally, like, when I start to feel like my, my tank is empty, right? Or my capacity to continue to endure or something is is waning. it's it's refilled with, with gratitude and not the cheap gratitude of just a quick thanks or whatever, but really sitting and dwelling and thinking and not so much and even and comparing of like, well, it could be worse.
00:26:52:25 - 00:27:11:24
Karl Thienes
You know, that's one, that's a, that's one that's a cheap form of gratitude. Yeah. not totally unplanned. Unusable. But but gratitude, just in a sense of whatever is, is and there's something profound about just sitting with it. Right. And, and and then again, those distinctions between what is good and bad start to evaporate a little bit, or they become less important.
00:27:11:26 - 00:27:22:18
Karl Thienes
That's right. The gratitude itself is what is then the only thing that matters? because it's, it's well, so much more peaceful to accept things as they are. And I tell people, oh, yeah, go ahead.
00:27:22:20 - 00:27:42:09
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. I was just I was just going to say that it takes some serious retraining of your brain and how you respond, because our knee jerk reaction is, you know, like, I was planning on going camping this weekend and now it's raining or I'm sick or, you know, whatever the thing is, and we get angry and frustrated instead of like, oh, okay.
00:27:42:09 - 00:27:59:21
Kelly Deutsch
Well, so if that's what, like Divine Mystery wanted for me, then what? What am I called to do with this weekend, you know, to have that kind of unperturbed spirit? If I don't know, it's like when you don't have that example around you and somebody to model that for you. It's almost hard to wrap your mind around for sure.
00:27:59:27 - 00:28:30:15
Karl Thienes
And, you know, personally, I would say, I have been so inspired by 12 step program people because for me, like, I probably seem that type of spiritual maturity there more than anywhere else. You know, these are people who have learned the hard way that the alternative to that is resentment and, you know, drinking and death like, and I think that's one of the things too, is that like the deeper you go into the poverty of your life, wherever it happens to be, wherever your weaknesses are in your your character defects, right?
00:28:30:18 - 00:28:45:18
Karl Thienes
If you if you pay attention to them, you'll see that they're causing mayhem in your life and, you know, and then if you get a little bit afraid of that. Right. And I think, you know, what you said in the beginning, like it, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's anger, but maybe it's fear, right? It's it's being afraid.
00:28:45:18 - 00:29:11:01
Karl Thienes
And and if you're afraid of the right things, then all of a sudden, right, pivoting into a spirit, whether it's a spirit of thanksgiving or loving acceptance of the poverty of the current moment, it it still is hard, but it sure is. It sure beats the alternative. And, you know, and I you know, I've worked with people all the time who talk about how they essentially and in recovery, they reoriented their entire mental framework around avoiding resentment.
00:29:11:03 - 00:29:33:01
Karl Thienes
And then that's how they started. And then they at some point, they pivoted to not just avoiding resentment, but accepting the resentment itself. Even. Right. And then and then you're free at that point. You're free because and I do think from a again, from a recovery point of view, the, you know, the impulse to drink, let's say, that tortures people who are who are addicts, it is lifted.
00:29:33:01 - 00:29:53:03
Karl Thienes
And that's actually how it's lifted, is that you've actually stopped fighting it. Now you've accepted the temptation, let's say, to drink as another friend that's trying to teach you something about the poverty of your life that you need to accept. And as long as you stay in that kind of rhythm, that all of a sudden right now, it doesn't mean I mean, the work is brutal and it's very and sometimes it's harder than just giving in.
00:29:53:09 - 00:30:15:19
Karl Thienes
Right. And that's why we see people relapse because it's very, very difficult to stay in that in that fight. But again, it but it's also way worse to relapse as most people will tell you who have. Right. and then if you do that long enough, eventually, you know, it teaches you like no matter how hard it is to stay in a loving and loving stance of embracing whatever it is that God has for you is way better.
00:30:15:19 - 00:30:18:21
Karl Thienes
It's a way better way to live than right than anything else.
00:30:18:28 - 00:30:42:09
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, yeah, I, I just think of how for those of us who don't have the more obvious addictions, you know, to like substances and things, I would say almost everyone has an addiction to control, you know, and just the need to, I mean, yeah. Don't we all? I mean, isn't that basically what an attachment is like? No, I want it my way.
00:30:42:09 - 00:31:03:15
Kelly Deutsch
Not whatever way it's unfolding in reality. And how difficult that is to catch ourselves in that moment. And I remember talking to, someone who, an alcoholic once who is saying, like, I mean, he was still kind of in the midst of things in the beginning of recovery, but he was like, I'm still trying to identify even what my triggers are like.
00:31:03:15 - 00:31:25:20
Kelly Deutsch
It's just all of a sudden I have a beer in my hand, right. You know, and to to see what brings us to that point, like what brings us to the point where we're snapping at our spouse or like worry is usually an indication that we're trying to control something in the future. You know, it's just anxiety. Our our insides don't know what to do with all of that energy.
00:31:25:20 - 00:31:45:05
Kelly Deutsch
So we're like, let me just see if I can fix it in my brain. And we fixate on it. And, and it's it's almost like a form of attempting to control. But, yeah, catching ourselves in the act. I feel like it's such a key moment for all of that. I mean, did you discover that in in your own work, or how was that for you?
00:31:45:08 - 00:32:07:21
Karl Thienes
Oh, definitely. And and even in, you know, from, from an Orthodox Christian point of view, the, the, the work that we're called to do in many ways is to slow down that process. Right? Is that because, you know, the the act of, let's say, of doing something evil or wrong is just is the end. That's the last thing that happens and in some cases, right, it has the most direct impact on your life usually.
00:32:08:13 - 00:32:22:00
Karl Thienes
right. And I think that's also why from, you know, in many circles, simplistically, right, the spiritual life has devolved into just essentially behavioral, you know, commodification, just of that last point. Right. Don't do that. Don't do the naughty things.
00:32:22:00 - 00:32:22:13
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, right.
00:32:22:18 - 00:32:37:02
Karl Thienes
And, you know, fair enough. Right. We don't want to do those things that like I'm not knocking that right. Sure. But it's but it's such a betrayal of the process because you're not going. And this is again from a recovery point of view, by the time you have the beer in your hand and it's up to your lips, you're done.
00:32:37:05 - 00:32:49:27
Karl Thienes
Okay. It's over. You're not going to stop at that point. and so the work that you have to do in recovery, and I think the work that you have to do in the spiritual life is to back up is to figure out, like you said, where are the trigger points? What was I thinking about ten minutes before I did that?
00:32:49:27 - 00:33:07:00
Karl Thienes
Right? And eventually if you really do all that work, you're you're going back pretty far usually. Right. Do you have figures that go way, way, way back. but but inevitably a lot of the work that you have to do is usually within like a let's say, seven day period. and you know, so but that's hard.
00:33:07:04 - 00:33:23:22
Karl Thienes
It's really hard just to be awake to think, well, I, I had a thought that came to me and having thoughts and they come to everybody. Right. And you know, you're if you're doing your work, you let them pass through, you lovingly accept them, you notice them, and then they're gone. Right? And you only act on the ones that you've already decided right to get your consent to.
00:33:23:22 - 00:33:40:18
Karl Thienes
But if that thought comes in and it starts to tempt you, then there's a whole sequence of spiritual things that begin to happen, right? You you bring like with Cain, right? God said, well, you you brought this in like a ravening wolf. You, you wanted to have relations essentially with. And then that's what carried you to, to murder.
00:33:41:17 - 00:34:01:21
Karl Thienes
but if we if we're paying attention to what's going on inside of us and we're feeling those feelings and letting them be what they are, right, then, okay, then you notice. I'm afraid I'm angry. Whatever that right. And you get better at differentiating those emotional states. It's not just, you know, happy, angry and pissed off. Most people think it's I just have three emotions and those are the ones it's like, right, right.
00:34:01:21 - 00:34:18:02
Karl Thienes
There's a whole you have hope, you have despair. You have longing, you have embarrassment. right. You have to figure out what's happening. and then and then to do that. Then once you do that, you figure out what the right course of action is, right? Maybe I need to back. Maybe I need to stay silent. Maybe I need to tell someone something.
00:34:18:02 - 00:34:35:05
Karl Thienes
Maybe I need to call my sponsor. Maybe I need to go to church. Maybe I need to eat something. You know, sometimes, like, the funny thing to like from a church, we think, is to think like you on a pilgrimage. I need to pray for baby. Maybe you're allergic to yesterday. You know, or whatever. You know, it can be a real simple thing, but that's humiliating to admit.
00:34:35:05 - 00:34:45:19
Karl Thienes
I think, particularly for spiritual people, to that are life, especially in an embodied world, right. Is that we're we have so many things that are going on, and sometimes the answer is much simpler than we'd like to be.
00:34:45:21 - 00:34:59:14
Kelly Deutsch
I remember seeing like a, I think it was a meme or something that said, like, you know, if you're having a rough day, like, you know, basically to ask yourself if I had enough water, if I had enough sunlight, have I had enough to eat? Like you're basically a plant with complicated emotions.
00:34:59:20 - 00:35:19:09
Karl Thienes
You know, like, yeah. Can we call that halt? Yeah. Hungry, angry, lonely. Tired. Yeah. And you can be for the addict. If you're. You can be one of those four and you're starting to already be on a bad slope. Two out of four, you're in big trouble. And you're probably you're already moving in a direction that's going to end up in catastrophe.
00:35:19:15 - 00:35:41:05
Karl Thienes
And three out of four, if you're not doing something immediately, then yeah, it's over. And four like, yeah, forget about it. So yeah. Right. And so again that takes a there's a certain level of maintenance and discipline to stay conscious and aware. And I think, again, going back to what you said about poverty, there's nothing more poverty, inducing than to constantly be realizing that.
00:35:41:05 - 00:35:58:16
Karl Thienes
Yeah, I'm almost always at least hungry, angry, lonely or tired all the time. And that means that I have to be awake all the time to being right, to being asking for help from from, from God or your higher power if you're in recovery. right. And so and then that puts you in a place of I'm always in need and I.
00:35:58:18 - 00:36:18:25
Karl Thienes
Right? I need help in not falling into one of these. but again, I think, too, you know, especially at the beginning when you really get into this, it's hard. But eventually God provides all kinds of help. And that help comes in the form of, you know, spiritual teachers and recovery programs and churches and friends and and even just internally, you start to develop some muscle, right?
00:36:18:25 - 00:36:39:25
Karl Thienes
So that even if you fall, you've rebound much quicker because you you have that faith and that trust in that love. Maybe just trust like your friend. Maybe it isn't like love, but at least it's trust, right? And you know that God's there to pick you back up and that you're forgiven and that learning what you need to learn from falling is actually critically important so that you don't fall next time and again, that goes back to that good and bad sort of distinction.
00:36:39:26 - 00:36:54:09
Karl Thienes
Is that even a, you know, and even in recovery, you know, we have people who relapse. It's like good. Like first of all, you're not dead. So that's good. And if you're not in prison that's probably the to. But and so you're here, you're back. And now you have something. You've gone to the you've gone somewhere, you have something.
00:36:54:09 - 00:37:15:18
Karl Thienes
Now that you've learned that maybe you can share with the rest of us of why you got there. Right. And I think, again, from a recovery perspective, and whether that's in churches or in, you know, doorstep meetings, the sharing of the what we've learned in the journey, both the quote, good and the bad, both of them are equally amazing, because if you hear people's stories of, hey, I, you know, like, God really saved me and I did some good work and things are working out better.
00:37:15:18 - 00:37:30:15
Karl Thienes
It's like, hooray, good, that's a good story. Or I wasn't doing my work and I wasn't paying attention, and I started making bad choices. And then this happened. Well, that's instructive and helpful for all of us, too. So there's in some ways, there is no good or evil. It's just all good. Right.
00:37:30:18 - 00:38:02:03
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. And it's hard to receive all of that as such. Yes. But I, I love the I mean I'm so glad emotional intelligence has started to take off and you know, business world and things like that because just starting to have a basic level of that emotional awareness and like you said, slowing down the reaction. You know, so when whatever my I don't know, sister says something kind of flippant and my initial reaction is like, what did she say to me?
00:38:02:08 - 00:38:10:21
Kelly Deutsch
You know, or actually, for me, I often have like a slower response. At first I'm like, and I have some sort of like, people pleasing response. And then it's later that I'm.
00:38:10:21 - 00:38:11:20
Karl Thienes
Like, oh.
00:38:11:26 - 00:38:32:22
Kelly Deutsch
Did I think I'm offended? Like, I can't believe she said that to me. You know, whatever. You know, things start kind of tumbling out. But to catch myself in the act of like, okay, which is one of the reasons why I love ifs like internal family systems and doing parts work, because I can pause and just say, like, okay, what what part is speaking right here?
00:38:32:22 - 00:39:04:07
Kelly Deutsch
And okay, hey, I see you're really upset. Do you want to tell me why you're upset? You know, and it's I mean, in a lot of ways, it's like talking to a child who's, you know, throwing a tantrum like, if you can stay in your adult mind and your deepest self instead of getting yanked into, you know, all of the, the mess and the the drama or the, just anger, all of the things that, you know, your child might be feeling if you can stay at least a few inches away from that and just say, hey, buddy, like, what's going on?
00:39:04:07 - 00:39:07:20
Kelly Deutsch
Sounds like you're really upset about something. Do you want to tell me about it?
00:39:07:23 - 00:39:08:00
Karl Thienes
Right?
00:39:08:07 - 00:39:12:18
Kelly Deutsch
Or like, should we maybe go grab a snack and then we can talk about, you know.
00:39:12:20 - 00:39:30:08
Karl Thienes
Whatever, like, well, and if you if you have protectors from an IFS perspective who are particularly well developed, that gets tricky because. Right, like you said, you if you have people pleasing skills or if you have, you know, a protector that's sophisticated in its, approach, you might not get that for two days or a week from now.
00:39:30:15 - 00:39:48:24
Karl Thienes
Right. And so that discontent that you're feeling on Tuesday might be from something that happened last Saturday that you're that it's just now finally kind of being allowed to bubble up into your consciousness and that the importance of really upright, of whatever you need to slow down and to do that kind of level of work, whether that's with someone else, journaling, prayer.
00:39:48:24 - 00:39:58:27
Karl Thienes
I mean, there's so many different tools, right? But to figure out, you know, am I just reacting to something that happened five seconds ago, or is it, is it how old? Like, what's the story of this patient?
00:39:58:29 - 00:39:59:29
Kelly Deutsch
Yes.
00:39:59:29 - 00:40:25:08
Karl Thienes
Yeah. I said, who would I be without that story? Right. That's such an important question of okay, I'm feeling this right now and I need to accept that. But then being curious enough and I think curiosity is such an under, developed and underappreciated sort of, tool, I think in our toolbelt is right is to, is to like you said, like, look that child in the eyes and want to know, like, I want to hear from you what you're feeling and what you need and what you want and what.
00:40:25:08 - 00:40:44:28
Karl Thienes
Right. because I think when it's all of that is not just information, it's it's a relationship. Right? Communion. And I think you talk about divine union. I mean, that's I think that's where it's at is the divine union is not just us as some monolithic entity and then God as some other better entity or whatever. Right. It's it's much deeper.
00:40:44:28 - 00:41:04:15
Karl Thienes
It's it's the realization that that union is so is so deep. Right? It's within us in ways that we don't even really understand. But curiosity is our way of saying yes to that. It's by right we offer or attention or interest or capacity in that moment. And it might be small, but, you know, God works with what? With what we offer the two loaves and fishes.
00:41:04:17 - 00:41:06:09
Karl Thienes
It's good enough, always good enough.
00:41:06:11 - 00:41:39:22
Kelly Deutsch
I know. And and the mess that we have inside, you know, I mean, I some of those ifs images that I like to use of like union for me is when you're able to have your deepest self, you know, where you're one with the divine. That is the orchestra conductor and all of the instruments, all of your different parts, like your people pleasing parts, your ones that tend to control, the ones that you know are really good and empathetic and listening and, you know, all of them get to play the parts that they're meant to play instead of like the strings staging like this coup de ty, you know, and like, we're taking over and
00:41:39:22 - 00:41:54:20
Kelly Deutsch
you're like, oh, hey, but the woodwinds, like, they still needed, you know, like, right. You know, so everybody can just play their part at the appropriate time. And sometimes you need that conductor to be like, oh, you know, like I need a little less from, you know, the bassoons over here. You guys are kind of taken over.
00:41:54:23 - 00:41:55:19
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:41:55:22 - 00:42:18:27
Kelly Deutsch
A little stronger over there from whatever the flutes. and so that to me is like just is such a helpful image for, for the interior life because we tend to have so many different voices in conflict with one another, you know, and especially with, with illness. I had so many parts coming up, you know, that last weekend when I was, you know, I was angry.
00:42:18:27 - 00:42:33:17
Kelly Deutsch
And then I was like, ashamed that I was angry. And then I was like, why am I shamed? I'm ashamed that I'm ashamed. Yeah. You know, and then I'm sad and I'm like, grieving because this is where I am, you know, and just. And then another part of me can still look outside and see that there's a blue sky and like, but we should be happy.
00:42:33:17 - 00:42:37:10
Kelly Deutsch
And I'm like, oh my gosh, there's so much happening internally right now.
00:42:37:10 - 00:42:38:12
Karl Thienes
Like.
00:42:38:14 - 00:43:07:24
Kelly Deutsch
Oh man. Yeah. It's and but. I'm just thinking of what you said before. Like being able to come to that place of accepting even your resentment, you know, and I think for any of those parts that we have inside that we don't really particularly like our responses or how, you know, controlling we are or whatever it is, whatever part or character defect or tendency that we have.
00:43:07:26 - 00:43:19:04
Kelly Deutsch
But if we can come to the place of embracing even that, I mean, I had to write. I can put a piece of paper on my wall last week that said, I accept that I cannot accept my chronic illness.
00:43:19:06 - 00:43:21:03
Karl Thienes
You know, I'm just like.
00:43:21:06 - 00:43:25:20
Kelly Deutsch
I have to remind myself of this multiple times a day. Like, this is just where I am.
00:43:26:14 - 00:43:27:25
Kelly Deutsch
And that's okay.
00:43:27:27 - 00:44:03:23
Karl Thienes
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Well and sometimes there's, there's reasons sometimes not to, not to accept certain things. You know we do we do have to have boundaries and some things are objectively not what they could or should be. And I think right, I think a lot of I know like for me particularly when I was you know, before I was in recovery, that was super hard for me to that I couldn't I didn't want to accept that I actually had legitimate, like, complaints because if I accepted that I had a legitimate complaint, you know, it it like, pitted me against God fundamentally in a way.
00:44:04:02 - 00:44:12:29
Karl Thienes
but it also then called forth for something for me, a responsibility usually to have boundaries, right? And to actually say what I need or what I want or what I think without.
00:44:12:29 - 00:44:14:11
Kelly Deutsch
Give an example of that.
00:44:14:13 - 00:44:38:12
Karl Thienes
Oh, boy. probably in this relationship in general, I would say, you know, I'm, I'm a, like a one on the Enneagram with a nine wing. So any talk about harmony is tickles. My, you know, like, I love that because, you know, having peace and connection and harmony is definitely something that drives kind of my, the one in me that wants to be right.
00:44:38:12 - 00:44:56:06
Karl Thienes
And what I want to be right about is the fact that peace is really worth fighting for. You know? Oh, yeah. And, but, you know, not everyone is like that. No, not everyone believes that or not. Everyone. Not everyone even sees that. And so, so for me, it would be in, in realizing that, well, that's something worth like.
00:44:56:08 - 00:45:14:15
Karl Thienes
That's not worth sacrificing. Right. there's a lot of work to be done to achieve that or to move in that direction. Right? It's not easy and it's a lot easier to talk about it than to do it. But, it's it made me resentful to to somehow sacrifice who I was or to not be willing to say what I wanted.
00:45:15:06 - 00:45:33:06
Karl Thienes
and so one of the things I had to do in recovery was to, was to realize I had to be a little braver about, you know, putting myself out into the world and risk being rejected, even on the merits, let's say, because it's easy to be resentful about something that, you know, is wrong. It's a lot easier to be resentful about something that you know is right.
00:45:33:06 - 00:45:48:16
Karl Thienes
You I mean, it's one of the things in relationships, it's like if you want to hurt somebody, you punish them for their vices. But if you really want to torture them, you punish them for their virtues. Right. And but but you can in a relationship you allow yourself to be punished if you don't have boundaries. Yeah. Right.
00:45:48:18 - 00:46:07:09
Karl Thienes
You know you can. And so it's one thing to take admonishment for something from someone right. For something that you know is wrong, that that's just like again, back to humility. Right. We should all be willing to accept correction. But right. But to accept being attacked and I think right. It's hard sometimes to tell the difference, particularly if you're a people pleaser or you want peace.
00:46:07:12 - 00:46:27:16
Karl Thienes
It's very easy to just say, well, I'll just do you know, I'll collapse in on myself or I'll do this thing that doesn't really, you know, work for me. but then again, like I said, that just breeds resentment. And resentment is an absolute poison. And it's not worth it. Just literally is not worth it. And it's also not if you, you know, from a Christian point of view, it's not how Jesus was.
00:46:27:18 - 00:46:46:28
Karl Thienes
You know, he was all the things. And when when mercy was called for and compassion, that's what he gave. And when it was strength and courage and having a boundary and saying the truth. That's what he did. Right. and so again, it's super inspiring. I think in some ways is to realize that whatever it's like from an from like an Enneagram perspective, you're going to come into the world with a certain worldview and a certain set of gifts.
00:46:47:01 - 00:47:19:08
Karl Thienes
But in some ways, learning to develop the beauty and the gifts of all the other types and practicing right, trying to be more of a helper, like a two or stronger, like an eight, let's say, is it's an incredible adventure to try to do that. and again, I think, you know, in recovery, that's one of the things we don't talk about it maybe necessarily from an Enneagram perspective, but that's the same kind of work is that whatever your character defects are, as you really begin to explore them as the the root cause of why, let's say you're an addict, it's in many ways it's a lack of engagement and curiosity with right the development
00:47:19:08 - 00:47:30:27
Karl Thienes
that you're called to. And that is the adventure of your life if you're willing to accept it. but it's, it's, you know, the easy route is to just avoid that or to hide from it or go to find your hang on.
00:47:30:27 - 00:47:49:23
Kelly Deutsch
I want to back up and say like, highlight what you just said there. So basically your tendencies towards addictions are often induced by, let's say, like your weakest enneagram or like the places where you are not as, well rounded, let's say.
00:47:49:25 - 00:48:00:13
Karl Thienes
Yeah, I think so. I think from what I've seen, I think that's a pretty I mean, it's not a perfect thing. I mean, there's always get it. But I would say for sure that's a good start is.
00:48:00:13 - 00:48:02:06
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah that's I mean.
00:48:02:09 - 00:48:02:21
Karl Thienes
Yep.
00:48:02:21 - 00:48:24:09
Kelly Deutsch
Huge. You know, I, I had someone on the podcast, maybe it was last year already. Doctor Jerome Loeb, who does like neuroscience and Enneagram, and he was talking about the importance of knowing your lowest numbers for that reason. And he gave this analogy of, you know, he everybody's got to be able to fly the plane.
00:48:24:09 - 00:48:36:29
Kelly Deutsch
You know, you have like 1 or 2 numbers that you're used to, you know, being in the, in the pilot's seat. But everybody's got, you know, sometimes you get your eight thrown in the pilot's seat. And if they've never flown before, yeah, you totally are. Like, I.
00:48:36:29 - 00:48:37:28
Karl Thienes
Don't know how to do.
00:48:38:00 - 00:49:08:03
Kelly Deutsch
This and, you know, get really stressed out and the whole system's freaking out, you know? And so you got to learn like, okay, so maybe we got to take this eight for like a test drive somewhere, you know, to practice in a lower stakes situation so that when it does become difficult, you know, if I can stand up to my sister, it'll be a lot easier to stand up to, you know, the bully at work or, you know, whatever it is, or the guy who keeps on making inappropriate comments and nobody says anything or, you know, whatever the situation is.
00:49:08:03 - 00:49:11:08
Kelly Deutsch
But those are hard. Those are really hard.
00:49:11:11 - 00:49:34:00
Karl Thienes
Very, very hard. And there's a balance to that. I think you have to strike. and I've done this a lot in the work environment where, you know, at some places there's a real focus on, you know, weakness, dealing with your weaknesses, trying to fix them and all that. One of the things I found, especially in the work world, is, it's way better and more effective and quite frankly, more, fun to just focus on people's strengths and amplifying them.
00:49:34:03 - 00:49:52:13
Karl Thienes
Right. You get both sides right? Of, like, you have to protect your weak side. but you also have to run toward something. And that was kind of like what I was saying before about you have to be afraid of the right things and that in love with or at least interested in the right things. And if you can balance those right, then then you have something that's that's not going to get unstable.
00:49:52:20 - 00:50:06:14
Karl Thienes
Because if you're just afraid of protecting your flank, right, you're going to lose interest or you're going to lose, hope, maybe even, or if you're just focused on your strengths, right, you're going to get to take something is going to cut you off at the knees at some point. Right. because you're not paying enough attention.
00:50:07:13 - 00:50:11:03
Karl Thienes
so it takes it's kind of a multi factor sort of approach that has to be done.
00:50:11:08 - 00:50:21:05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Can you think of an example of something like that where focusing on, I don't know, both your strengths and your weaknesses essentially like what does that look like.
00:50:21:07 - 00:50:41:03
Karl Thienes
It's like in the work world or anywhere. Yeah. well like in the work world, there are, there are people who are very, very detail oriented. Right. And and the other thing too is that like, usually your strengths and weaknesses are the same thing. They're just they're really manifested. And that's this probably good example of that being super detail oriented is great, right.
00:50:41:03 - 00:51:06:04
Karl Thienes
But it also hinders you from being a strategic thinker usually. and it also might prevent you from being more personable, let's say. and so right. And so you have to figure out what's and it's not a balancing act necessarily. It's if you're detail oriented then find work that that rewards detail oriented activities. Right. Accounting let's say and and then your weaknesses, let's say maybe you're not as personable, maybe you're more of an introvert and you like the numbers thing.
00:51:06:08 - 00:51:23:19
Karl Thienes
Well, then do that work. And then your weaknesses in some ways are mitigated by the environment, because what you're not going to get called on very often to exhibit extraordinary feats of extroversion and, you know, salesmanship, let's say, so in the work world is a little easier because it's more bounded. but in the spiritual life, obviously it's it's much more complicated because, well, that's everything.
00:51:23:19 - 00:51:40:11
Karl Thienes
It's not just work. but I think the same principle applies, which is, you know, pursue with curiosity and passion the things that interest you. and most of the time we don't really do that because we're afraid or we're embarrassed or we don't know. Right. It's a bunch of things. but also we need to run away from things that we know are weaknesses.
00:51:40:14 - 00:51:56:17
Karl Thienes
And in recovery. I mean, that's kind of an easy one, which is like, you know, the mantra is go to meetings, get a book, get a sponsor, and don't drink beer. Like, that's the plan. Basically, what I just outlined in my form, you know, and but again, that's what the beauty sometimes I think of these things like we can condense them down.
00:51:56:21 - 00:52:13:05
Karl Thienes
There are much more. You don't have to be, you know, you don't have to think about them. Esoteric. It's there's real practical things that you can do. but that's also why it's so helpful to have somebody to talk to, a community to work with. And because it's impossible at some point, you know, you can do a lot of work on your own, and you have to do it all.
00:52:13:07 - 00:52:36:26
Karl Thienes
You have to do all the work, but you can't. You also can't do it alone. And, I know for me, I, you know, trying to do things alone is usually what got me into a lot of trouble. and I, you know, I have an army of people now that I consult and work with and talk to, and because I just, I realize the problem that I'm facing, which is my ego is so large that I need I can't do it by myself or.
00:52:36:28 - 00:52:39:26
Karl Thienes
Right. It's I'm fighting in some cases against myself to some degree.
00:52:40:03 - 00:52:48:01
Kelly Deutsch
Right? Right. We try to use our ego to defeat our ego. Right? And that just yeah, we end up in circles like a dog chasing a scale.
00:52:48:02 - 00:53:05:18
Karl Thienes
Yeah, but like you said, too, like your ego also is not your enemy, right? It's just one of the parts. And it's a super critical one, and you should never get rid of it. and then, you know, it's probably one of the things that eventually kind of drove me out of Buddhism was the realization that the destruction of my ego was, first of all, not possible.
00:53:05:21 - 00:53:28:01
Karl Thienes
And second of all, probably not wise because my ego was a part of me. That that and still does serve a very critical function. It's a it's a narrow, myopic, right kind of function, and it has to be bounded and, and broken of. But the, you know, our egos are incredibly important. And because in some ways there are the it's the energy of how we bring ourselves into the world.
00:53:28:01 - 00:53:29:04
Karl Thienes
It hurts the ego.
00:53:29:12 - 00:53:45:27
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. I was going to say the ego is the entire symphony. Those are, you know, yeah, some psychological circles. They're just called, you know, sub personalities or ego states, you know, so it's like, oh yeah, my ego knows how to be a people pleaser. My ego knows that to be judgmental critic, my ego knows how to also knows how to serve.
00:53:45:27 - 00:54:09:18
Kelly Deutsch
You know, I that was something that, you know, I kind of had a rude awakening to in Rome when I had a spiritual director ask me, I think I had just gotten into the Enneagram over there, and, I over there, I tested as a two because, like what? None isn't formed to be a to, and, I remember my spiritual director asking me, like, do you like, get something out of, like, serving other people?
00:54:09:18 - 00:54:10:20
Kelly Deutsch
And I was like.
00:54:10:23 - 00:54:12:03
Karl Thienes
No, I don't.
00:54:12:05 - 00:54:25:17
Kelly Deutsch
I don't think so. I mean, I think I just genuinely love being able to serve. And he's like, okay. And like six months later, I came back. I was like, oh, I totally do. I feel like a good person and like, it makes me proud that like.
00:54:25:24 - 00:54:26:15
Karl Thienes
You know, yeah.
00:54:26:19 - 00:54:33:21
Kelly Deutsch
This is what I get, you know? And it was hard to come around to that though, like, oh, there is ego bound up in that, isn't there?
00:54:33:27 - 00:54:53:23
Karl Thienes
Yeah. But one of the things I remember we talked about one time was like, for me, like, I love books, right? And I love knowing things. And as a one, I love being right. And I thought for years, early on when I was young, especially in the spiritual life, that that was how you become a spiritual person, from my point of view, is that you just become more and more right all the time about everything.
00:54:53:25 - 00:55:10:10
Karl Thienes
And, and, you know, it's like one of those things like, that's true on a at a very superficial level. Right. What I didn't realize was that being right for me, like, to the extent that I want to be right, means that I need to be constantly wrong all the time. That's actually that's the price you pay for wanting to be right.
00:55:10:13 - 00:55:28:24
Karl Thienes
And so, again, like from that sense of like pursuing or trying to become who you are and protecting kind of what that means in terms of the weaknesses that you'll bring forward is, for me, like I had to and I didn't learn this until recovery was. I had to be constantly not only aware of, but really, like in love with being wrong about things.
00:55:28:26 - 00:55:47:21
Karl Thienes
I had to start liking that process. You know, obviously I'm going to it's going to be uncomfortable and painful and all the rest of it. Right. But to understand that, that the more times that you've been wrong about something and come through the other side, right, with some level of wisdom or empathy or whatever, it is, right that you were wrong about, that just makes you better at being right the next time.
00:55:47:23 - 00:56:03:23
Karl Thienes
And at some point, right, it, you start to realize it's not about being right anymore at all. It's just about being loving. right. But that requires, again, that sort of engagement with the shadow part of whatever. And I think every Enneagram has a type has a version of that. Right?
00:56:03:26 - 00:56:28:18
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. And I think that's so important to highlight that wherever we do see our strengths, that we do need to pay attention. You know, just like that detail oriented example that you gave. Like, we need to pay attention to what that shadow is because otherwise it comes to like bite in the butt at some point in time. And it's it's very easy to, you know, whether you're a one that wants to be right all the time, or two that wants to serve all the time.
00:56:28:18 - 00:56:54:06
Kelly Deutsch
And sometimes you just need to, like, step back or stand up for yourself and, you know, have a little more weight, energy or, you know, whatever it is. So to pay attention to those shadow parts. yeah. To me, it doesn't have to be like your sole focus. I think it's wonderful to be able to play to your strengths and find outlets where you feel most yourself and alive and, you know, get to use your gifts and your, flow.
00:56:54:09 - 00:57:05:24
Kelly Deutsch
But if you don't. Yeah. Like, then if you don't ever, give those other shadow parts a chance to exercise, you know, when they're called upon in a certain situation.
00:57:05:27 - 00:57:26:03
Karl Thienes
Yeah. And they, they are always called upon. Right. Because we're constantly stumbling and falling and, and, you know, for you like being ill, physically ill presents a multitude probably the most, opportunities, that most of us have in this life, like when our physical body goes, that's when all of the issues come up. Because that's so central to who we are.
00:57:26:09 - 00:57:40:22
Karl Thienes
And I can imagine for you, like as a to let's say, I mean, there's nothing worse than being sick and not being able to help, which is. So I have a little like thought about this. So the story in the Gospels where, Jesus heals, Peter's mother in law and it says she immediately got up and began serving them.
00:57:40:28 - 00:57:42:25
Karl Thienes
I've always thought in my head she must have been a two.
00:57:43:02 - 00:57:43:20
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00:57:43:23 - 00:58:00:13
Karl Thienes
Right. She was like brought back to her normal state of being where she could make dinner or whatever, you know, she was doing. That's right. I don't know, there's something about that. But it's hard, right, when physical illness takes away whatever it is, that kind of makes us feel alive or, gives us purpose.
00:58:00:16 - 00:58:19:22
Kelly Deutsch
It is especially because I for me, I have a part that has so many dreams and desires, you know, also being this, like HSP, this highly sensitive person, when I feel things, I feel that deeply, you know, and so there's just like so much that I wanted to do which sometimes I kind of have to smile at like, yes, okay, I know there's ego in that too.
00:58:19:22 - 00:58:36:06
Kelly Deutsch
I'm sure. But there's also just genuine, God given desire. I think in anything that we long for deeply. And so, yeah, I've, I've had to continually remind myself just to trust that, like, if it's meant to be, if God has given you this desire, he will fulfill it.
00:58:36:09 - 00:58:37:21
Karl Thienes
Yeah, right.
00:58:37:24 - 00:58:59:03
Kelly Deutsch
I don't know how. And it might not be right now. It might not be in ten years. Like maybe it's after I die, I don't know. But to be able to sit in the ache, in the need, in the poverty and just say, like, I can't do this, I, I need help, I need to find help. I need help from my community, from my family, from whoever.
00:59:00:09 - 00:59:21:06
Karl Thienes
Yeah. Well and then and asking for help might be your way of helping them. Maybe people are looking for an outlet to give. You know I think it's so hard with the last two years with lockdowns and, and just isolation in general. Right. I mean we've focused a lot on what people don't have, and rightfully so. But we've also there's also the other side of it, which is a ton of people have a lot to give.
00:59:21:09 - 00:59:47:29
Karl Thienes
And the outlets for doing that are, you know, decreasing in terms of just the most obvious easy ones to tap into. and so there's, there's like this dearth of, I don't know, energy that feels like it's not being, you know, people need things and people have things to give. And getting those people together is harder. Yes. So yeah, but I appreciate forums like this where, you know, we can talk and that's, you know, for people who love to talk, that's a great way to connect and to, to fulfill that a little bit.
00:59:48:01 - 01:00:16:00
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, absolutely. I can't believe an hour has already gone by. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing on this, adventure with me as we explore all of the wonderful things that, the divine brings up in our interiors. that's one of my favorite things about spiritual wanderlust is just like, let's just see where, you know, there's this sense of longing, and our wandering brings us and, where the divine is and all of that.
01:00:16:03 - 01:00:16:27
Karl Thienes
That's a beautiful thing.
01:00:17:02 - 01:00:18:05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.