Let Your Heartbreak Be Your Guide

Get ready for a real deep dive, ya’ll. From his childhood in oppressed Poland, to being an undocumented immigrant in the US, meeting Christ in India, and founding a new monastic community, Father Adam Bucko’s story has given him a razor-sharp vision into the meaning of life.

Join us to learn:

🔸 What gives Adam hope in the midst of so much suffering and pain

🔹 What it means to travel into our despair–and how that can provide us a “container in which grace can descend”

🔸 The role of the Black Madonna in Eastern Europe

🔹 How meeting a homeless child in India changed his entire life path

🔸 His top 6 favorite Eastern European saints–and why we need Saint Faustina more than ever

Join us as we navigate some of life’s most tender paths.

Father Adam Bucko is a spiritual director, activist, and Episcopal priest (with dreads!). After growing up in Eastern Europe, Adam went on to spend many years working with homeless youth in New York, through his award winning organization, the Reciprocity Foundation.

He has long been dedicated to a life of engaged contemplation, and is remembered for being a founding father of the New Monastic movement.

He currently serves as a director of The Center for Spiritual Imagination, and is a member of The Community of the Incarnation, a ‘new monastic’ community dedicated to democratizing the gifts of monastic spirituality. He is the author of several books, including his latest, Let Your Heartbreak be Your Guide: Lessons in Engaged Contemplation.

To learn more about Father Adam, visit FatherAdamBucko.com, or check out his Center’s webpage, spiritualimagination.org.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:00

Kelly Deutsch

Hi everyone. Welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. My name is Kelly Deutsch, and today I am excited to introduce you to the activist, spiritual director and Episcopal priest with dreads no less, Father Adam Bucko. I think you might be the first priest that I've met who who has dreads, and I'm totally here for it. After growing up in Eastern Europe, Adam went on to spend many years working with homeless youth in New York and his award winning organization, the Reciprocity Foundation.

00:00:32:03 - 00:01:00:02

Kelly Deutsch

He's long been dedicated to a life of engaged contemplation, and is remembered for being a founding father of the new monastic movement. He currently serves as the director of the center for Spiritual Imagination, and is a member of the community of the incarnation, which is a new monastic community dedicated to democratizing the gifts of monastic spirituality. He's the author of several books, including his latest, Let Your Heartbreak Be Your Guide Lessons and Engaged Contemplation.

00:01:00:04 - 00:01:02:05

Kelly Deutsch

Welcome, Father Adam.

00:01:02:07 - 00:01:08:00

Adam Bucko

Thank you so much. Kelly, for this invitation and for this time together.

00:01:08:02 - 00:01:11:10

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, absolutely. I've been so looking forward to it.

00:01:11:12 - 00:01:12:06

Adam Bucko

Me too.

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:33:19

Kelly Deutsch

I wanted to start off today by asking you a little bit about your upbringing, because you grew up in a very different context than most Americans. you were in Poland under a totalitarian regime. And I'm curious if you would tell us a little bit about what that was like and how that shaped who you are today?

00:01:33:21 - 00:02:15:28

Adam Bucko

Yes. so I was born in 1975. and my early years happened before the system changed in Eastern Europe. And as I was growing up in the 1980s. and it was a very different context. you know, the majority of people of Poland were sort of forced to function outside of the mainstream society. We had to organize our own networks to, pass on information about what was really happening in our country.

00:02:16:00 - 00:03:08:12

Adam Bucko

We had to create networks to distribute food. as I remember very well, during my childhood, a lot of items, were apportioned. You would receive tickets from the government in terms of, you know, how many pounds of proteins or other things you could buy per family, and it wasn't very much. and so I grew up with the sense that here I am, living in this society that was not created to support my basic needs, that was not really created to be able to nurture my longings or facilitate or help to facilitate any kind of a life of meaning and purpose.

00:03:08:14 - 00:03:38:24

Adam Bucko

and so that was my context. Growing up in the 1980s was in some ways a very scary experience. I didn't know if you might be too young to experience the true novel disaster. It's too young to remember the Chernobyl disaster. You know, the nuclear thing that happened in what is now Ukraine. You know, you know, things like that.

00:03:38:24 - 00:04:14:02

Adam Bucko

What happened? And, that was just like 300 miles from where I was living. And our governments didn't tell us about it until we were exposed to the radiation. And even though they themselves were hiding in, you know, in anti-nuclear shelters and stuff, images of people, you know, being run over by tanks in the streets. I mean, all of that was somehow present all around, even though I grew up in a very loving family.

00:04:14:04 - 00:04:45:15

Adam Bucko

that cared for me deeply and etc.. so I think my, my search for God, happened out of necessity to find something that I can rely on. and in Poland, of course, a lot of the systemic, changes that took place, were inspired by protest movements that were grounded in the church that preached nonviolence.

00:04:45:18 - 00:05:22:27

Adam Bucko

and so that two inspired me very much, you know. I saw priests who were very courageous priests who were not afraid to speak truth to power. Our own parish priest was killed by the government, because he dared to, name the oppression and try to gather people to pray for a different kind of reality, to emerge in our midst the reality based on democracy, nonviolence, and justice.

00:05:23:00 - 00:05:54:19

Adam Bucko

so I think that was my context, you know, and in that context, you have to deal with your suffering. and I felt like I needed to search for this kind of a something that would be able to that would enable me to hold all the staff of our lives with a sense of, you know, just feeling like I'm being held with all of that.

00:05:54:21 - 00:05:59:08

Kelly Deutsch

That's a lot like I can only imagine,

00:06:00:14 - 00:06:31:14

Kelly Deutsch

The contours interiorly that, that carved in you from a young age. And I mean I feel like this is diving deep very quickly, but with, with all of that just terror and, and pain and chaos, that existed around you, people murdered, violated, used in terrible ways. How have you learned to maintain hope?

00:06:31:16 - 00:07:01:26

Adam Bucko

Yeah. I mean, you know, I also don't want to kind of exaggerate what the situation was. Life still went on. Sure. people still loved each other. In many ways. This living in that kind of a situation created an alternative system within, the existing system that was based on solidarity. I mean, that was also the name of the, protest movement that emerged.

00:07:01:28 - 00:07:37:03

Adam Bucko

so that two created a lot of hope. But, you know, for me, I mean, I have this very simple experience of I remember and that was kind of one of my first really spiritual experiences of, of sensing something from the priests that I was seeing. And then, as a result, wanting to embody that in my own little way as I was just the kid and building a little altar at home and trying to say mass, because in my mind, that was how you related to God.

00:07:37:06 - 00:08:16:01

Adam Bucko

That was how you related to the divine. And, you know, in Poland, a lot of language, around God was very motherly, because the most important kind of symbol of Poland is the Black Madonna, of Chester, however, who who's kind of considered to be our mother. And she has the scars on her face and for us, that meant that she sort of feeling our pain and that lands that we could bring to her all of our suffering, and she would hold us with that.

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:45:18

Adam Bucko

and somehow infuse us with, with something that could help us to carry on. And so I think a lot of my early hope came from having those kinds of experiences and also realizing that I can do something. so things like activism and this desire to change the world was really something that was present all around me.

00:08:45:18 - 00:09:07:18

Adam Bucko

And I think I grew up with that. I remember my parents telling me not to pick up, you know, the pro-democracy posters, because as a kid, I would just pick them up on the streets and bring them home because they're afraid that we'll get arrested. But it was from early on I had this sense that our life here on this earth, like we have a choice.

00:09:07:20 - 00:09:42:00

Adam Bucko

And. And that choice, should be about doing something for the world, transforming the situation. and that saying yes to God means that we have to say no to everything that violates God's love and justice in the world. so that was the that was the experience. That was the conviction. and of course, if you ask me back then, I doubt that, you know, like, I would have been able to articulate that.

00:09:42:00 - 00:09:52:20

Adam Bucko

But now this is kind of how I connect the that's how I understand what was emerging in my little psyche of, of a ten year old or 12 year old, you know.

00:09:52:23 - 00:10:07:24

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. And I love that that sense of community, the system within the system is a big part of, what sustained you and gave you hope going forward? Because I think that's often what we find we have to do today as well.

00:10:07:26 - 00:10:33:08

Adam Bucko

Absolutely, absolutely. Because our world is sort of collapsing. our systems are no longer stable, and there's so much injustice and instability all around us. And I think that, again, we are called to that kind of organizing, that kind of building of solidarity.

00:10:33:10 - 00:11:09:10

Kelly Deutsch

And I think even just having an outlet like so many people often feel powerless. You know, when they see all the news across the world today and they feel powerless and hopeless. But to find different, to find these little systems within a system, the microcosm, other people who are, passionate about making a difference in the world and being activists and, even in just small ways, you know, you don't have to go to a protest necessarily, but finding ways to love the people in your community, you know, and serve locally, I think that does really give us hope.

00:11:09:10 - 00:11:12:28

Kelly Deutsch

Like, I can do something about this.

00:11:13:00 - 00:11:36:25

Adam Bucko

Yeah. And, you know, I think for me, what I have discovered over the years that it's actually very helpful to claim that feeling of hopelessness, of arrogance ness, and to claim that in community and to sit with that, to confess that, to put it on the table and make that turn that into the centerpiece around which we can gather together and be present to that hopelessness, that powerlessness.

00:11:36:26 - 00:12:25:22

Adam Bucko

And in my experience, when we do that, a certain receptivity and openness is generate within ourselves and within our communities. And then if we can stay long enough with it, we do transition into hope, but it's God's that becomes the hope in us. it's God that becomes the power in us. And I think that in some ways, what we're going through as a society, as a species right now in some ways is comparable to what, what Saint John of the cross talked about when he talked about an individual journey of the dark night?

00:12:25:24 - 00:13:02:23

Adam Bucko

and I think that we can learn a lot from that individual process as to how we should be present to what's happening on a societal and global level. And I mean, that through, you know, writings from different mystics and traditions, when we are taken into those times of trial and, and testing, so to speak, in purification, we have to, on some level, consent to things just sort of falling apart and to be present with all that is in a state of receptivity and listening and consent.

00:13:02:25 - 00:13:46:28

Adam Bucko

And out of that change happens. And I think that that is the danger in a way, with, you know, activism that is not necessarily grounded in spiritual practice, that we try to, think our selves into solutions. And a lot of those things are helpful. And I'm all for planning and strategic action and etc. but the risk there is that we can, try to generate solution, that solutions that will be grounded in the very parts of ourselves that contribute to then maybe even build the, the, the, the situation that, that we are experiencing right now.

00:13:47:01 - 00:14:24:27

Adam Bucko

And I think that spiritual practitioners, we are invited right now, especially to travel deeply into that hope, into that despair, and to invite the divine to be there with us and to see what can emerge out of that process as we cultivate this kind of a confessional way of being, confessing our pain, confessing our helpless ness, and then generating that receptivity and sitting and waiting for that impulse of God that I believe we all have access to in, you know, in the depths of our hearts, but also in the midst of our communities.

00:14:24:29 - 00:14:48:11

Adam Bucko

If we can gather together in such a way that our relationships and how we're relating to each other can almost build a container into which Grace can descend and do the work of healing. And so I think that in some ways, you know, when I speak about engaged contemplation, I'm talking about something like that action that comes from that, receptive posture.

00:14:48:18 - 00:15:33:28

Adam Bucko

And again. You know, I spend most of my life being an activist and being engaged in service. and, I'm not necessarily against that. but I think that these times especially and call us for prayer, for fasting, for empathy, think of what we think we know and for receptivity. So we may receive the instructions. We may receive, you know, the presence that can carry us forward in ways where our talents and what we know may be used in ways that we may be can't imagine yet.

00:15:34:00 - 00:16:10:25

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I love that, because it's so I mean, that's really the heart of what contemplation is, is that stance of receptivity. You know, I call that the Marian stance, where you're just palms open. But, I mean, it's hard to sometimes receive despair and powerlessness and pain, but it is really beautiful. I love that image of the community forming that container in which grace can be poured out and received, because it's it is very painful, especially to do it all on our own.

00:16:10:27 - 00:16:20:25

Kelly Deutsch

And so to have that with others and to come together as that centerpiece, as you said, you know, with others saying like, this is really hard. You know.

00:16:20:28 - 00:16:52:06

Adam Bucko

It's very hard. And that's why I think that, you know, and there are so many conversations going on about how to renew the church, how to make the church relevant again, how to re-envision or reinvent whatever theology is. And again, all of those projects are very helpful. But in the end, this paths that we call Christianity. And I do believe that it's a part and the practice is very simple.

00:16:52:08 - 00:17:31:07

Adam Bucko

It's us gathering in a small group and listening and wrestling, you know, with what God says to us through listening through scripture, and then building courage with each other through confessing, forgiving and other things, giving courage to each other to respond to what we hear God, saying to us, and giving each other, I think it's maybe Richard Rohrer who said dangerous permission to say yes.

00:17:31:09 - 00:17:47:00

Adam Bucko

you know, that's the part. And then hopefully to do that within the context of, you know, breaking bread and the sacraments and, and getting loved up by God and then going into the world and living differently.

00:17:47:03 - 00:18:14:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yes. There's such a different, I don't know, sense of light or, I don't want to say levity because it's not like, you know, not like we're going out joking around necessarily. But I guess the sense of levity that hope brings, you know, people can walk out and say, like, I have faced my powerlessness and I'm depending on God to do something about it.

00:18:14:14 - 00:18:15:27

Adam Bucko

You know, take the.

00:18:16:04 - 00:18:16:17

Kelly Deutsch

Space.

00:18:16:18 - 00:18:44:06

Adam Bucko

Exactly. And I feel like oftentimes you when you talk to people who gather in communities like that, they literally feel infused with something that they know is not coming from them. and that moves them into the world with confidence. And trust doesn't mean that it's, you know, all hearts and flowers. Life is still difficult, and we still have our basic challenges.

00:18:44:09 - 00:18:53:04

Adam Bucko

you know, we still have to work on ourselves and all that. but the context for it changes.

00:18:53:06 - 00:19:15:03

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. I feel like all of this makes a lot of sense of of your book title. You know, let your heartbreak be your guide. what what inspired the writing of this book and putting it together because it sounds like it's emerged from a lot of, reflection around this topic.

00:19:15:06 - 00:19:49:29

Adam Bucko

Yes. You know, in many ways, I was not planning to write this book, but, a friend of mine, an editor from Orbis, asked me to put together some of the things that I've been talking about, that I've been preaching. And so a lot of what's in the book actually emerged in conversations, in sermons at the beginning of the pandemic, when we were still gathering on zoom because it was unsafe to meet in person in New York City.

00:19:50:02 - 00:20:10:29

Adam Bucko

so a lot of the stories and other things that are in the book come from that period. now I tell stories from kind of, you know, in many ways the book is very autobiographical, but I was basically.

00:20:11:02 - 00:20:42:18

Adam Bucko

Trying to show up at the beginning of the pandemic in a way that could help people to listen, to not just move into activity, which we so, you know, all of a sudden, I mean, just looking at social media during the first few days of the pandemic, everyone who's a meditation teacher was leading meditations. Everyone who was a priest was like doing, you know, celebrating live streaming Eucharist from their kitchen table and, all that stuff.

00:20:42:18 - 00:21:06:11

Adam Bucko

And it felt like everyone was just looking for an audience because, everyone who was involved in the field of spirituality somehow felt that they needed to do something that would be an offering to others. And at that point, you know, at the Cathedral of the incarnation, where where I am, a priest, we decided to just stop for a few days and to just sit and listen.

00:21:06:13 - 00:21:26:08

Adam Bucko

And out of that emerged, you know, quite a few different actions, including feel, you know, feeding, you know, people in hospitals who were working 24, seven and etc.. and, but I think that through that,

00:21:26:10 - 00:22:00:27

Adam Bucko

Period. You know, I was trying to come up with stories from my life, examples, experiences that I've had to offer them to people in a way where, those experiences could help them to get in touch with their own experience. With their own moments of grace, with their own moments of being touched by God. so this way that could kind of help them to touch base with who they really are in God and begin to show up from that place.

00:22:00:29 - 00:22:31:29

Adam Bucko

And so some of the chapters of the book initially were sermons that were delivered on Zoom Church. Some of the thoughts in some chapters emerged in conversations on the street. You know, as we were feeding people our conversations through different programs and interviews. And then when I was asked to put it together for a book, I sort of rewrote all of that and and put it into a form that I thought maybe could work as a book.

00:22:32:02 - 00:22:33:22

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. Yes it is.

00:22:33:24 - 00:22:36:11

Adam Bucko

So that's what that's what happens there.

00:22:36:17 - 00:23:07:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes, I like the little vignettes and snapshots that you get. and I find, I mean, I find that to be true in a lot of contemplative works. I mean, you try to read like, I don't know, James Finley or even Merton, you know, where they just give little nuggets because it's it's so contrary to our, like, left brained analytical, you know, points three some point a like you can't break down such profound truths.

00:23:07:00 - 00:23:30:28

Kelly Deutsch

So matter of factly and so sometimes it is easier to just give like snapshots and give example after example after example until people start to, kind of absorb that and understand, what you mean on a very, visceral level. so I love, I love the format that you used. I wanted to ask about one part in the book.

00:23:30:28 - 00:23:44:03

Kelly Deutsch

You, you describe your time in India, as the biggest turning point of your life. And I was curious if you'd share a little bit about that. Like, what led you there? And, what what happened that so dramatically impacted your life?

00:23:44:05 - 00:24:29:03

Adam Bucko

Yeah. And thank you for asking, about that. So, and just to give you a little context, I immigrated to this country at the age of 17 with my mom. My dad was already here at that point. We came here as undocumented immigrants. At that point, I was not connected with the church in any kind of a strong way, because even though the church in Poland was so inspiring, once the system changed, the church tried to kind of replace the Communist Party and really ran the system like a lot of kind of shadow energy came up.

00:24:29:03 - 00:25:07:09

Adam Bucko

And so a lot of our young people just simply left the church, not necessarily left this sense of the spirituality that we tasted there. But we started mistrusting the institution. And so when I came to this country, I think I started experiencing eventually things like, you know, panic attacks really. Was kind of symptoms of, post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, and I think some of it was just related to having grown up, in the country where I grew up.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:43:20

Adam Bucko

Yeah, without necessarily processing it properly. And so when all of that started happening, I met a counselor, a Polish counselor, who was, disciple of, a Hindu spiritual master. And she taught me meditation. and a few other things. And I it really started changing me a lot. All of a sudden, I felt like I was in touch with something deep within that was just natural to me when I was a child.

00:25:43:20 - 00:26:20:03

Adam Bucko

But being in New York City, I just kind of lost it, you know? and I remember I started having dreams of this spiritual master that she was following and. It didn't really know what to do with that. So she gave me a name of a bookstore in New York City, which was called East West Books. it's no longer there today, but it was one it was like a spiritual have in the city, with an excellent selection of mystical writings from every tradition.

00:26:20:05 - 00:26:43:25

Adam Bucko

and I mean, an amazing selection, you know, it was connected to an ashram. and there are also classes in meditation and all that. But I remember walking into that bookstore and picking up the first book and opening it, and there was, a Himalayan monk with long dreadlocks just kind of walking through the Himalayas.

00:26:43:27 - 00:27:20:12

Adam Bucko

And I remember thinking like, wow, that's my guy. You know, I already have dreadlocks. This is who I want to be. I mean, I was like 19 years old, you know? But that led me to, spending some time at Ananda Ashram, which was this kind of Hindu ecumenical ashram, with a monastic component. It was also a center for interfaith dialog, where people like Father Thomas Skilling or Roshi Bernie Glassman or Tessa Blackie and others would go, Brother David Stangel rest.

00:27:20:17 - 00:27:45:05

Adam Bucko

So it was this very vibrant community where we and at that point, Swami Ananda was still around. and, you know, he was this kind of a very beautiful character. He's the guy who opened Woodstock essentially with with a speech, you know, to all those thousands of people, about, how in order to fight for peace, we need to embody deep within.

00:27:45:08 - 00:28:25:02

Adam Bucko

so I went to that ashram, and that's where I learned what it meant to have a contemplative life. What it's meant to have a rhythm of life, what it meant to serve the world in a way, where that service would become an offering to the divine, you know, and I think it was probably in that ashram that one of the Hindu swamis, talked about people like Father Bede Griffiths and this whole movement of Christians, who formed this Hindu Christian ashram movement.

00:28:25:05 - 00:29:02:29

Adam Bucko

Initially, many of them went to India, maybe even thinking that they would be spreading Christianity. But in the process, they were so inspired by the Hindu tradition that the conversion that happened was really in them. you know, it opened them up to a holy new dimension of, of of how they viewed what Christianity was and what, how it was related to other traditions and also absorbing the deep insights of Hinduism and Buddhism and Sufism and so on.

00:29:03:01 - 00:29:36:21

Adam Bucko

And so, in that ashram, I discovered, you know, that kind of Hindu Christian ashram and eventually a few years later, that led me, to India, where I was supposed to spend time with Sister Vandana Mataji, who was both a Catholic nun and a Hindu nun. and, and she had this small hermitage at the foothills of Himalayas called Jeevan there a southern tier, and, you know, I learned a lot from her.

00:29:36:23 - 00:30:31:15

Adam Bucko

and I went there, but on my way there in Delhi, I met a homeless child. And meeting that homeless child, you know, skinny with her face, you know, burned with cigarets, you know, bought and sold many times. Some Westerners were making porn films with her. it was kind of, for me, that was like an experience of meeting Christ who found me on an empty street in the middle of the night after arriving in India, took my hand and asked me to buy her something to eat and that experience was really, I felt like it was a call from God.

00:30:31:17 - 00:31:14:04

Adam Bucko

I remember feeling so shattered by this encounter and feeling that whatever my life will be, it needs to include this child somehow. And so eventually, I moved for a few months into a Christian ashram that was located outside of Delhi, in the slums. and that was another kind of initiation of learning how to be with all this suffering, because people from the street, street kids, adults, elders would just be brought into our ashram, oftentimes with maggots in their bodies, you know, with multidrug resistant TB, oftentimes HIV positive was quite a few were addicted to heroin.

00:31:14:06 - 00:31:43:18

Adam Bucko

And so all of that, in a way, you know, my initial ashram experience, the way because of my childhood trauma, I really embraced that kind of monastic framework of leaving the world. And some of that was really about my inability to deal with my own trauma, with my pain and dissociating from my body, from my feelings, from my life experience.

00:31:43:20 - 00:32:10:22

Adam Bucko

and I remember meeting Tessa Bielecki. it was probably 1995, and she was back then still and my mother, prioress of a Carmelite inspired community. And I remember her saying, you know, the first step on a mystical journey is to fall in love with life. and I remember thinking like, holy crap, falling in love. In love with life.

00:32:10:22 - 00:32:39:06

Adam Bucko

I don't even know that I'm really alive. you know, I experienced a lot of peace, but I was also very numb. and that was kind of, you know, so. So that child, when she grabbed my hand, really brought me back to earth, brought me back to all the pain and to all the trauma, both within myself, in my life, but also in the world.

00:32:39:09 - 00:33:15:10

Adam Bucko

And out of that emerged, I think, a more integrated way of being a contemplative. that's why for me, contemplation and action are not two different things. action can become contemplation, if it is grounded in that posture of receptivity, which for me, that's, as you said, so beautifully, that's really the essence of contemplative practice as we see it, in the Christian tradition.

00:33:15:12 - 00:33:46:01

Adam Bucko

Yeah. so that was kind of, you know, in the experience for me, I went there to with a dream of becoming some kind of a Himalayan monk, but that didn't happen. and I'm so glad because for me, the path was to really reenter the world and to face all the messiness of my own life, but also of the world and.

00:33:46:04 - 00:33:51:16

Adam Bucko

And be before God, holding all of that pain on my heart before God.

00:33:51:18 - 00:33:52:17

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:33:52:19 - 00:34:15:28

Adam Bucko

which for me, that's what intercession is. really the prayer of intercession. You know, it's that phrase being with God, with people on our hearts or whatever comes from Michael Ramsey, one of the archbishops of, of the Anglican Communion. And I think that's sort of the best definition of intercession that I ever came across.

00:34:15:28 - 00:35:01:22

Kelly Deutsch

I think I love that and, thank you for sharing all of that, because I feel like it's such a powerful experience and especially of recognizing how much, our own trauma can get all jumbled up with our interior life, you know? And that's one of the reasons why I find that so important, you know? And things that I do with spiritual wanderlust and talking about like trauma and neuroscience and mental health and all of those things, because if, if we're not, interfacing, engaging with our own pain, it's so easy to, spiritually bypass all the difficult things, all the shadow, and it ends up coming to kind of bite us in the

00:35:01:22 - 00:35:21:24

Kelly Deutsch

rear in one way or another. you know, so whether we engage with it purposefully or oftentimes, life brings it to us, whether it's, you know, meeting this homeless child and all of this pain kind of comes rushing to the surface and you're like, oh, or I feel like for me, it was, you know, leaving the convent in Rome and illness and all of that.

00:35:21:24 - 00:35:49:09

Kelly Deutsch

And it was like when I was cracked open physically, like emotionally everything came up to. And I was like, oh, there's there's a lot that needs to be, faced, but with, with the divine, you know, and, I, it also struck me to, I think in the contemplative movement, there is still some of that, romanticizing of the monastic movement, as if it is a nice way to, like, flee the world.

00:35:49:09 - 00:36:14:28

Kelly Deutsch

And I, you know, gosh, that would be nice to be a hermit and not have to deal with, like, crying children or, you know, whatever, insurance and all the different things. But, I think it's I love Evelyn Underhill in the way that she talks about, you know, the contemplative life, mystical union is such a it's like embracing reality, you know, it's not fleeing at all.

00:36:14:28 - 00:36:30:20

Kelly Deutsch

It's engaging. It's getting elbow deep in at all. And, I think the way that you share that in, in your India story of seeing this like, child who's been so abused and that being your entry point.

00:36:30:22 - 00:37:10:07

Adam Bucko

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, this romanticizing of contemplative life, I mean, it happens quite often, not necessarily among, traditional monastics, right. Live it and know it very well. The ups and downs, you know of it. but by people in the world and there's a tendency to kind of also to intellectualize everything and, and turn it into this kind of an intellectual, mystical wrestling with things that sometimes can be quite detached from reality.

00:37:10:07 - 00:37:39:13

Adam Bucko

And again, you know, I'm not against study. And I mean, I try to study every day the texts and, and and all that, but in the end it's quite simple. and I think as we grow spiritually the goal is to simplify our practice is to simplify our own being. and to just be there in a state of voice in the presence of the divine.

00:37:39:16 - 00:38:15:05

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, I love that. It is. it's it's in the ordinariness of our daily lives. But all of this plays out and and in the pain. But, you know, fortunately, there's also the joy and the and the joy, you know, silly moments with your kids or grandkids, you know, whatever. Just, Yeah, all of it. I, I wanted to ask a question to, because you have you grew up in this different context and have, some of more of that eastern influence from from your childhood.

00:38:15:08 - 00:38:32:09

Kelly Deutsch

I was curious who you would say are some of your, eastern saints or role models that are particularly important for you? I know we we share a love of, like, Catherine Doherty, Maximilian Colby. And I was curious who else you might named as.

00:38:32:12 - 00:39:07:02

Adam Bucko

Yeah, so I would I would say that Catherine Doherty is, has been a very important influence, because I think that she really beautifully combines East and West and also contemplation and action and the kind of action and sometimes very prophetic action, like, for example, when she was challenging racism in the US, very kind of powerful and almost forceful and fearless way of critiquing, you know, the Catholic establishment and university.

00:39:07:02 - 00:39:48:14

Adam Bucko

So for a day, with a deep mystical grounding of, you know, the, the, the practice of going into the desert of our hearts, which she called passenger, which is both a Polish and Russian word for the desert. and so I think that, you know, she has been a very, very big, influence on me in addition to that, father years in population, who is a martyr priest from Poland, who preached nonviolence.

00:39:48:14 - 00:40:22:24

Adam Bucko

My parish priest was his best friend and was also murdered for continuing the father years work. And there's a, a very good documentary available online called The Messenger of the truth, which really talks about his life and and his message. also, a Sister Teresa Benedicta of the cross, who by many maybe wouldn't be considered to be more of an eastern saint.

00:40:22:26 - 00:40:58:23

Adam Bucko

but, you know, she she grew up in, what is now the city of Portsmouth, in Poland before that was German and was very much influenced by that Eastern Jewish, Eastern European Jewish upbringing. And she has been very important to me kind of almost as an older sister, especially in my 20s and early 30s, I just had this very strong sense that I can really learn something from her.

00:40:58:25 - 00:41:37:25

Adam Bucko

You know, Saint Seraphim and the great, hermit, and and healer of souls, such a powerful, powerful, spiritual presence in Eastern Europe. and then also Saint Faustina, you know, the Polish saint of Divine Mercy. I often find myself repeating her, her prayer. Jesus, I trust you quite often and often in English. You know, it's translated as Jesus, I trust in you.

00:41:37:27 - 00:41:52:02

Adam Bucko

But the actual Polish in her, in her journal, what Jesus tells her in terms of what it should be is Jesus. I trust you, not Jesus. I trust in you. And to me, that's much more intimate.

00:41:52:05 - 00:41:53:06

Kelly Deutsch

yeah.

00:41:53:09 - 00:42:25:10

Adam Bucko

you know, it's not treating Jesus as a thing, but rather as a personal presence. And instead somebody like, you know, who talks about God being in, personal, passionate presence and a response to God should be personal, personal, passionate presence, big pope with small people. And so to me, Jesus, I trust these that kind of way of just being in openness and receptivity and consent.

00:42:25:13 - 00:42:58:15

Adam Bucko

so those are some of the, some of the saints. And then, of course, you know, some some Jewish saints as well, like, Rabbi Nachman now one of the great, you know, Hasidic masters, I had a, Jewish, you know, Hasidic mentor, who spent his life working with street kids in New York City after being mentored by some of the great masters, in the Holy Land.

00:42:58:17 - 00:43:17:08

Adam Bucko

and it's really him who kind of infused me with the love of of the spirituality that comes from, you know, Rabbi Nathan. so those are some of my kind of Eastern European. Yes, influences. You know?

00:43:17:12 - 00:43:32:20

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. I think we might have to do a class on them sometime because I feel like, especially outside of, like, Catholic circles, like, I don't know that people know about Saint Faustina or Edith Stein or Theresa Benedict of the cross, but they have such powerful stories and.

00:43:32:22 - 00:43:51:21

Adam Bucko

Very powerful stories. And, you know, normally, and those saints are celebrate aided by, kind of the most conservative, segments of the church. and.

00:43:51:24 - 00:43:54:27

Adam Bucko

I think they're saints who belong to everyone.

00:43:55:03 - 00:43:56:17

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes.

00:43:56:20 - 00:44:28:27

Adam Bucko

I mean, Saint Faustina really revolutionized our idea of God. That it's really. Yes. You know, I mean, the classical Christian, thing about judgment, you know, is there and even liberation theologians like James Cone, you know, talked about not just love but judgment. Otherwise, you know, those who God has nothing to say to those who are oppressed.

00:44:28:29 - 00:45:03:08

Adam Bucko

but, you know, without being able to judge those who oppress them and etc. but like Saint Faustina moves from that judgment into mercy that, heart of God is really about divine mercy. Yeah. and that's a message that we need to hear, especially for those of us who maybe have not had a good experience with organized religion and have been damaged by that overly judgmental, you know, understanding of the divine.

00:45:03:10 - 00:45:27:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. And I know her her, teaching about trust really changed my young spirituality when I first read her. You know, that I basically as as a cure to worry and anxiety. Like, I mean, if I can't do it, then God's going to have to do it for me, you know? And that that is an act of trust.

00:45:27:11 - 00:45:29:09

Kelly Deutsch

yeah. I feel like I could go on about that.

00:45:29:09 - 00:45:54:04

Adam Bucko

And this is going to very much with like also Carmelite spirituality in Saint Rest of you, you know, and, you know, eastern Europe is very interesting. I just want to maybe tell you this quick story. We might be running out of time. But in Poland, during the resistance, there was this one special place which was, a community for blind children outside of war.

00:45:54:04 - 00:46:24:04

Adam Bucko

So. And that community somehow became this kind of a hub for all the intellectuals, connected to the Catholic resistance movement, you know, fighting against the oppression of good old Aryan state. That's sometimes where they would gather to kind of strategize and to philosophy and, and theology seemed terms of how to show up, you know, and meet oppression.

00:46:24:07 - 00:46:55:06

Adam Bucko

And there's this Polish anarchist priest was no longer alive. His his name is Yanga. Who was this kind of a wisdom figure? in Poland? A very wise elder, sort of a and he's a Russian, words, you know, like a started who was really a guide to many. And he tells this story how one time, the director of that house, you know, for, for blind children, and they were struggling with paying mortgage.

00:46:55:08 - 00:47:16:22

Adam Bucko

And finally they received a donation, and he went to the bank, and he puts the money in the bank teller, and he said, I'm here to pay the mortgage for our facility. and the bank tellers is like, what do you mean? Why? You know, that woman already came here earlier in the paint, and he's like, what woman?

00:47:16:22 - 00:47:51:00

Adam Bucko

And she's like that woman in your wallet. That picture. And it was a picture of Saint Rest of Lizzie. you know, and so I think Eastern Europe has this kind of sense that the saints are real friends. and they are among us, you know, sending roses, sending blessings, supporting us. and I think that's something that this kind of awareness that we could really benefit from right now when things are quite hopeless.

00:47:52:05 - 00:48:03:17

Adam Bucko

In our world. So we can call upon them and, and and be open to the divine help. Yes. That is available.

00:48:03:19 - 00:48:38:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yes. That is definitely something I would like to, explore more with people because it's such a, a part of that, interconnectedness and mystical union that we talk about, you know, in this world of, of mysticism, when you start to get this sense that we're all deeply connected, and it's not just with other humans that are like on the other side of the globe, and it's not just with the creatures, you know, and the trees, but it's also with those who have already passed, you know, and then they are so vividly alive and and want to support us and be with us.

00:48:38:27 - 00:48:42:15

Kelly Deutsch

So I think that's a really important topic.

00:48:42:18 - 00:48:44:02

Adam Bucko

Yeah, yeah.

00:48:44:04 - 00:49:01:26

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. So we're we're coming in on time here. Adam. But I'm curious, if people want to learn more about your work, about your monastic community, about your wonderful book, let heartbreak be your guide. Where should they go?

00:49:01:28 - 00:49:28:06

Adam Bucko

And so I have a website. It's Father Adam bacco.com, and also the center for Spiritual Imagination, which is the ministry of our new monastic community, has a website. It's Spiritual imagination.org. and, my book can be purchased, in most of the online outlets, where books are sold.

00:49:28:08 - 00:49:51:11

Kelly Deutsch

Marvelous. Well, thank you so much for taking time to share with us. Thank you. Your story, your book. It's, clear that you've been, steeping in all of this for a long time, so it's fun to be able to hear, the fruits of that as you begin to, I think for a lot of us, it's helpful when someone else is connecting the dots for us and helps us connect our own dots.

00:49:51:11 - 00:49:52:12

Kelly Deutsch

So I appreciate you.

00:49:52:12 - 00:50:26:24

Adam Bucko

Well, thank you for bringing all of your experience, you know, tremendous experience, into this conversation. I'm really, really grateful for that. And, you know, it's so nice that you are, building this community, of people who, as a result of all the amazing conversations that you've had with amazing teachers, can be inspired to begin to practice listening, to begin to practice trust.

00:50:26:26 - 00:50:32:07

Adam Bucko

Because in the end, that's what, being a contemplative is all about.

00:50:32:10 - 00:50:45:07

Kelly Deutsch

Amen. Yes, I'm thrilled to be able to welcome all of those who, who are hungry for this or have those longings that have a place that they can be fed. So thank.

00:50:45:07 - 00:50:45:17

Adam Bucko

You so.

00:50:45:17 - 00:50:50:23

Kelly Deutsch

Much. Yeah. Thank you so much, Adam. And thank you, everyone for joining us today. We'll see you next.